Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

I really tried to stay out of discussing this tragedy, but I can't.
I don't think that taking an experienced diver's (your) tank and reg and forcing an inexperienced diver (Pam) to share air on an ascent with a non-professional is necessarily the best thing to do. As was said about 70+ pages ago, the first goal in a rescue is to not make two victims, and even that refers to the rescuer becoming a victim, not some third party.
I doubt that would be considered 'safe protocol' by most any DM trainer.
Besides, as you pointed out above, "WE" left him and "NO ONE" went to look for him. If you had plenty of air and thought that the appropriate action was to initiate a search for a lost diver at an unknown depth, why didn't you hand Pam off to Matthew and descend yourself?
That's still very confusing. I'm not surprised that a DM with such a splintered group would lose track of someone.

This is all very tragic and unfortunate. If it were me, I'd try to put it past me. Laying the blame on someone won't bring your friend back, nor will it (likely) affect the dive industry in a positive way.

That is why you don't agree to seperate groups, each with brand new divers. That is just one of the many things this dive guide did wrong on this dive.

 

[Blackwood]

Also, I didn't know the slope went off so deep, Matthew didn't explain that in detail I just thought it was a hard bottom we were diving along at a 100ft or a little deeper. I only found that out after the dive. Only Matthew knew that.

Right, but knowing the depth in retrospect, you're still suggesting that he ought to have searched for him.

But had I known the bottom was that deep and there was a deeper spot I would have swan to that location and at least looked down and banged on my tank. We all could have banged our tanks. Whether it would have helped I don't know.

It would have put more people (the other inexperienced diver at the very least) at risk.

What would you have done in my situation?

[Personally] I'd go look for him within a reasonable (i.e. not putting myself or buddy at risk) depth range. Though that's not going to be a long search with a partially used single tank and a ceiling of 100 feet, I'd do it [but I wouldn't expect anyone else to do the same].

I looked around in the water and didn't see Brendan. And when Matthew continued the Dive I ASSUMED (and I know now you should never assume anything) that someone must have told him Brendan went to the surface and was OK. Because in my mind WHAT DM WOULD LEAVE A DIVER BEHIND? Is there one on this board that would? Unless they know for sure they cannot save that person without killing them self. And we didn't know that. Nothing was done or any attempt was made to stop and access what had just happened.

I'm surprised he continued the dive if he knew Brendan was missing. General protocol is to surface (as was said, it's much more likely Brendan surfaced - intentionally or otherwise - than descended).

 

[pilot fish]

The time for giving the deceased diver a talking to was pre dive, when he asked about 100 ft. Had this mess of a dive guide guide done that, things would have been vastly different.

I also want to say that Brendan could have played a big part in his own death, but that doesn't mean that you just let someone die because they did something by meaning to or not meaning to. You try to help them and then if you can you save them and then give them a good talking to. Just as you would your own son or daughter if they just did something stupid that could or did endanger their life. So I am not laying ALL the blame on Matthew I am simply saying he could have done MORE to look for Brendan and simply choose not to. And I don't know why. And I guess that bothers me because Matthew has so much more training than I do and I can come up with a 100 scenarios of what I would of done if give the opportunity again. However, I have learned I will not put myself in that situation again with a group dive and I will have some safety training behind me before I dive again. Assuming I will dive again.

 

[pilot fish]

yeah, right. This might surprise you, I hope you're sitting down, people on the Internet say all kinds of things and you can't always believe them.

Is it just my paranoia then, reading the post and then the profile...
just didn't seem to be something a professional would come out with before reading any prior posts or enough to give an educated response. after all the answers to all the posters questions are in the posts...

Hey, I can't be a plant. I've disclosed all about me and offered for anyone to come along and dive with me etc in the UK... remember the posts way back then

 

[Blackwood]

That is why you don't agree to seperate groups, each with brand new divers. That is just one of the many things this dive guide did wrong on this dive.

That depends on his role as DM.

Is his role to act as a guardian? If so, yah, sure.

But if his role of the more common 'guide people around a site and point out the places where the pretty fish often hide', then not so much.


When you're diving with certified divers, at some point you have to let them make their own decisions. Foster is a certified diver who isn't comforatable diving to 100 feet, and yet opted to get into the water with a floor of (at least) 100 feet and hang around at 60. Should the DM had said to her, "no, either you dive with me or you don't dive at all."? I'll bet for every 4 times you do that, you lose 3.5 paying customers.

 

[GaryLee]

yeah, right. This might surprise you, I hope you're sitting down, people on the Internet say all kinds of things and you can't always believe them.

I know, they even go on boards under more than one name and end up getting Banned!
I found a group on the internet only yesterday where this had happened a few years back, started making me think and also set in that paranoia

 

[Cave Diver]

I also want to say that Brendan could have played a big part in his own death, but that doesn't mean that you just let someone die because they did something by meaning to or not meaning to. You try to help them and then if you can you save them and then give them a good talking to. Just as you would your own son or daughter if they just did something stupid that could or did endanger their life. So I am not laying ALL the blame on Matthew I am simply saying he could have done MORE to look for Brendan and simply choose not to. And I don't know why. And I guess that bothers me because Matthew has so much more training than I do and I can come up with a 100 scenarios of what I would of done if give the opportunity again. However, I have learned I will not put myself in that situation again with a group dive and I will have some safety training behind me before I dive again. Assuming I will dive again.

In fairness, the 100 scenarios you've come up with are done with the benefit of hindsight and time to reflect on what happened. It's also possible that many of them may be unworkable because of reasons that you just don't know.

The outcome was tragic, but not without value. Many people have stopped to consider their own roles, the roles of the dive guide/pro and their comfort with both of those things.

If it causes someone to reassess their skills, seek additional training, or dive more conservatively, then at least some good will have come from a sad event.

 

[pilot fish]

The point is, DM or DG, no matter, he never should have taken anyone in that group to 100 ft and never should have split the group. We all stay at 60 ft. Who in that group was going to object to that?

That depends on his role as DM.

Is his role to act as a guardian? If so, yah, sure.

But if his role of the more common 'guide people around a site and point out the places where the pretty fish often hide', then not so much.


When you're diving with certified divers, at some point you have to let them make their own decisions. Foster is a certified diver who isn't comforatable diving to 100 feet, and yet opted to get into the water with a floor of (at least) 100 feet and hang around at 60. Should the DM had said to her, "no, either you dive with me or you don't dive at all."? I'll bet for every 4 times you do that, you lose 3.5 paying customers.

 

[fosterboxermom]

You're right there are scenarios where things could have turned out different and you've come up with a couple which is good thinking.
The problem is that with experience and knowledge comes an understanding of what can and can't be done whilst minimising risk. As you say Matthew has so much more training so whatever happened he made a decision based on his experience and training and acted accordingly. He will live with his choice for the rest of his life as will Pam and I for one don't wish that on anyone.

You are right we all have to live with it. Especially Pam and Matthew. They are the ones mostly effected by Brendan's death, excluding the families of Brendan and Pam.

I just want to be as prepared as possible if EVER this situation occurs again. I know for one. I will insist the dive be aborted at the very least and a search and rescue start.

 

[pilot fish]

I know, they even go on boards under more than one name and end up getting Banned!
I found a group on the internet only yesterday where this had happened a few years back, started making me think and also set in that paranoia

In other words, YOU could be two different people on this board? You could be Mathew, or the man in the moon, or a friend of mathew's, or the Dive Op. :shocked2: