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Diver dead after accident in Lake Ontario near Oakville
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Jimmer
Contributor
I'm not looking to get into a pissing match, and I know you have plenty of training and experience to speak from, but to blame any of this on MM's training is really hitting below the belt. I have been trained by MM (not exclusively, but most recently) and can assure you of two things.
1. MM has never in my presence, suggested anything other than diving within the limits of your training and experience.
2. I, like every other diver, regardless of who trained them, has a mind of their own, and can choose to follow their training, or not.
ScubaSteve
Wow.....what a DB
What a silly statement. So, because an accident happened while diving off a boat, that company should close down for the year? What if it had happened in June? Still close up until December? Or is it until diving season opens up again in May? An accident happened. Yes. We have no clue what happened. Yes. Why in gods name would you hold it against a charter that they tried to remain in business? You seem to have an agenda which might be clear to others but I'll have to reread the thread to see if it is still clear with all the deletions.
Jay Roy, I agree with ScubaSteve . . . :shocked2:
People have jobs and lives dependent on a business. The captain, the person that runs the store, the owners, and in a lesser way the marina that keeps the boat, the fuel station that fills the boat, the tank fillers, the dive ops that charter the boat, and on and on.
Having a death on a dive boat is never an easy thing, even when autopsy provess 100% it is not your fault. But life must go on, people must get paid and bills paid, and life continues. Please do not fault the boat op per se.
Jay Roy--
In today's economy, how can a dive charter close down for a year? That's a luxury most operators today simply can't afford.
In today's economy, how can a dive charter close down for a year? That's a luxury most operators today simply can't afford.
Jay Roy
Contributor
Firstly, there is no way here in Ontario, a guy with a zodiac is paying his mortgage running a weekend charter op. He is not affiliated with any shop, and trailers the boat...Also, with the exception of some of the more hard core divers, the charter season here is about May until Sept. For most of the charter ops up this way, its a second income, and a hobby.
Secondly, the boat captain was the victims friend and buddy on the dive. God forbid if I ever brought one of my friends, and dive buddies to the surface VSA, I dont think I would be jumping in the water a weekend or two later..Sorry, but thats just me.
Secondly, the boat captain was the victims friend and buddy on the dive. God forbid if I ever brought one of my friends, and dive buddies to the surface VSA, I dont think I would be jumping in the water a weekend or two later..Sorry, but thats just me.
Ayisha
Contributor
Jay, like many others here, has been privy to details of this accident that have not been made completely public. He has been involved in the information gathering, as he has mentioned in the past. He has also been diving with the op before and has dove that wreck with him. I think his agenda is to find out the truth about that fateful dive. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jay.
Raimund, the president of the OUC (Ontario Underwater Council), called me at home a few weeks ago and assured me there will be a follow-up report on this accident and it will be much more detailed than it is now, once they sift through the info and determine what is fact. Scott, Brooke and Raimund, please let us know when you update the report, and we hope it will be soon...
Until then, there is enough leaked info that people have put together a quite plausible scenario of events leading to T's demise...
Jay Roy
Contributor
Country Diver
Registered
Adiverswife, I am sorry for your loss, but I do have to comment on your blasts here. Not to upset you....but......I do know what I am talking about here with regards to training, with regards to the site, and what the certification level was...which was an Advanced Open Water diver, not a technical diver. You cannot comment on a level of diving when you yourself are not certified. I knew your husband, I know the operator, and I know the site. Not making anything up, and I have stayed away from speculating with regards to gear, or anything else out of the ordinary. Those facts are not in yet.
Lake levels haven't dropped 20 ft to make this a recreational dive site.
When it comes to some of the other comments in this thread, you will find that sometimes do go off topic, and they are referring to the dive industry in general.
I do hold the certification and the knowledge to make these comments, and I will not sit back and be lashed out at over this. You are lashing out at the wrong people. I can't even begin to imagine what you are going through, and I understand that you feel the need to protect you kids, but this is all part of the procedure that all divers go through when there is an accident, especially a death. Even in the discussions that come off of the main discussion can offer some sort of lesson that can be learned.
When I said that it was avoidable...it was. Advanced Open Water divers should not be on this site. Single tank divers have been brought to this site for a "bounce" dive, which is stupid. Those that are that bring a stage bottle of whatever max nitrox mix they can get from the shop(40%), do not have the decompression background to safely perform the dive. If they are doing a trust me dive...even worse because they will not know if an error is made. Mixed teams....Rebreather diver with a bail out, of unknown gas to the other diver, and an open circuit diver....when there is an issue, do both divers know the plan?, When both divers are on open circuit, there are procedures that are standard and familiar to the divers...same gear configuration, known gases, etc. Unfamiliar set-ups will only help a situation snow-ball even more out of control. Passing off a bail out bottle, if needed, still leaves a diver on their own to deal. Last but not least, gas planning. At a site like this, a tri-mix should be used. The days of diving deep air, or the "best-mix" are gone. There has been enough research and experiences documented to show that its not a safe practice, and there are better alternatives.
Every comment that has been made should be questions that you need to find the answers for. Why was he brought there to that site? Wanting to dive something doesn't mean that you can or should. Why could a buddy who is an instructor not help or gain control of the situation? When did it not become a paid charter (when it was obviously planned)? Most people pay after the dive, so in this case its easy to say that it wasn't a paid charter.
I believe I have answered your questions. I am done wasting time going over this over and over again, as my views have not changed. If it was gear related...which I highly doubt...then depending on what it was, it could be maintenance. I doubt that it was gear related because he dove good gear and took care of it.
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Stoo
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I have said this before, here and on OD, but I think that there is far too much emphasis put on the C-card that this individual may or may not have held. There are many very capable divers around, that hold fairly basic certifications, but who have racked up large and varied dive histories. On the other hand, the victims diving history doesn't apparently indicate that he had done much diving to this depth. To me, that is the much more relevant factor.
As for not holding some sort of deco certification, I don't really think that that's relevant as every version of the accident has the fatality occurring at depth, before any decompression would have been instituted. Deco simply wasn't a factor in this accident. Admittedly, the gas-planning aspect of that course could have been helpful.
And Jay, I don't know what you have against EC, but it seems to me that you are coming awfully close to slandering him. I think it is established that this was not a paying charter, and that it was simply three friends going diving together. As for EC closing down for the year, while that might be the "sensitive" thing to do, I don't think you can reasonably expect him to do so. By your standard, every charter operation in the country would likely have to close down at one time or another. In any case, I fail to see the point in him doing so.
I also want to repeat my earlier comment that I don't really understand why some here feel that they are "owed" an explanation for what happened. I am virtually certain that we will never know all of the details of this, and even if we do, will it really make any difference? (Assuming that DCIEM doesn't determine that the victims regs were faulty, or his gas was punk...)
I read a book about ski mountaineering some time ago, and there was a recurring discussion about the high rate of fatalities in that activity, and how following an accident, there is a great clambering for information... for details and explanation. The author theorized that it served little purpose but to fuel what he called "creative rationalization". His theory was that by learning "the facts", others could simply dismiss the accident because they had learned "the reason" why it happened. In doing so, they would simply rationalize that if they didn't make the same mistake, they would be fine. Isn't this exactly the same thing we are doing?
As others pointed out here (I think it was here) anything we learn from this accident probably isn't going to change the way we dive. It might cause us to review how we go about a few things, but really, do any of us think that we dive in an unsafe manner now? I doubt it... what idiot would dive "knowing" that they weren't "safe" in the water? I am frequently criticized because I generally dive alone. I won't argue that it's for everyone, but it's how I have been diving for more than 30 years, over thousands of dives. I think I'm safe, but I also know that many people will disagree with me. (I really hope that there is an afterlife, because if and when I buy it diving alone, I would really, really want to read the thread about it!
)
So I figure that all of this crying about "deceit" and "conspiracy" really serves little point. But we can't NOT want to know all of the details. We NEED to know, because in knowing, we think we will be better equipped to avoid meeting a similar fate. At the end of the day, as I have said before, I doubt that there will be any earth-shattering finding, no matter how much we learn.
When all of the reports are out, I would bet money that this accident will be summarized something like this: Three friends went diving. One of them got sloppy. The buddy system either didn't work again (either because they didn't "practise drills" or because it was non-existent, by design or by accident). And shyte happens... because sometimes it does in a sport which has serious consequences when things go wrong.
In the age of PADI World Domination, I suspect that there are millions of divers out there that have no idea that they are literally one breath away from dying at any time. But that's a discussion for another thread...
As for not holding some sort of deco certification, I don't really think that that's relevant as every version of the accident has the fatality occurring at depth, before any decompression would have been instituted. Deco simply wasn't a factor in this accident. Admittedly, the gas-planning aspect of that course could have been helpful.
And Jay, I don't know what you have against EC, but it seems to me that you are coming awfully close to slandering him. I think it is established that this was not a paying charter, and that it was simply three friends going diving together. As for EC closing down for the year, while that might be the "sensitive" thing to do, I don't think you can reasonably expect him to do so. By your standard, every charter operation in the country would likely have to close down at one time or another. In any case, I fail to see the point in him doing so.
I also want to repeat my earlier comment that I don't really understand why some here feel that they are "owed" an explanation for what happened. I am virtually certain that we will never know all of the details of this, and even if we do, will it really make any difference? (Assuming that DCIEM doesn't determine that the victims regs were faulty, or his gas was punk...)
I read a book about ski mountaineering some time ago, and there was a recurring discussion about the high rate of fatalities in that activity, and how following an accident, there is a great clambering for information... for details and explanation. The author theorized that it served little purpose but to fuel what he called "creative rationalization". His theory was that by learning "the facts", others could simply dismiss the accident because they had learned "the reason" why it happened. In doing so, they would simply rationalize that if they didn't make the same mistake, they would be fine. Isn't this exactly the same thing we are doing?
As others pointed out here (I think it was here) anything we learn from this accident probably isn't going to change the way we dive. It might cause us to review how we go about a few things, but really, do any of us think that we dive in an unsafe manner now? I doubt it... what idiot would dive "knowing" that they weren't "safe" in the water? I am frequently criticized because I generally dive alone. I won't argue that it's for everyone, but it's how I have been diving for more than 30 years, over thousands of dives. I think I'm safe, but I also know that many people will disagree with me. (I really hope that there is an afterlife, because if and when I buy it diving alone, I would really, really want to read the thread about it!
)So I figure that all of this crying about "deceit" and "conspiracy" really serves little point. But we can't NOT want to know all of the details. We NEED to know, because in knowing, we think we will be better equipped to avoid meeting a similar fate. At the end of the day, as I have said before, I doubt that there will be any earth-shattering finding, no matter how much we learn.
When all of the reports are out, I would bet money that this accident will be summarized something like this: Three friends went diving. One of them got sloppy. The buddy system either didn't work again (either because they didn't "practise drills" or because it was non-existent, by design or by accident). And shyte happens... because sometimes it does in a sport which has serious consequences when things go wrong.
In the age of PADI World Domination, I suspect that there are millions of divers out there that have no idea that they are literally one breath away from dying at any time. But that's a discussion for another thread...
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