Divemaster Responsibilities

[ScubaSteve]

And top off your typical "tropical paradise" where things like "island time" exist and liability laws are all just academic and I am amazed that more people don't die every year.

This thread has certainly opened my eyes. Not going to stop me from diving of course (10 more days until Cozumel!!!)

The more I read here, the more thankful I am that I ended up with a great OW instructor and that my LDS is the type of place that it is.

Forgetting about the fact that some people want all responsibility here or there, the dive community will be a safer place if, from this thread, new and experienced divers alike learn that there is no consistent answer as to where responsibility lies. TALK to the operator and the DM/DG/Ships Captain/First Mate/Janitor....whatever they are called. Make sure they know what you expect before you leave and make sure they have explained what they are "there for". There will be no false feelings of security and the site SHOULD reflect something you would be OK with.....unless they just ignored everything you said and just took your money.

 

[SoybeanQueen]

The problem I have with all of this is that during training they NEVER tell the students that a DM is just a guide and that YOU should not rely on them. That needs to be stressed in training for your C card.

Actually, in my OW training (SSI), that point was made more than once. Thank goodness.

 

[rstofer]

PADI allows a full cert at 15 as do most agencies. 10 and 11 yr olds must be with a DM, AI or Instructor in training. However if a parent elects to take their kid diving no one is going to stop them. 12, 13, 14 yr olds must be with a DM, AI, Instructor OR a Parent or Guardian. 15 & 16 yr olds should have a DM or other certified diver with them. You must understand that these are recommendations and NOT LAWS! Anyone can do whatever the hell they want really. The 16 yr old was perfectly within his cert to be on that dive without a legal guardian. I'd bet that he had mom and dad's permission on the waiver you all signed though.

PADI allows jr OW at 10. The 13 for on line means no more than it does on myspace. Seems 13 is ok for anything online.

Jim,

Completely OT to the original thread but the PADI Jr OW diver can dive with a PADI Professional OR certified parent/guardian. See Kids Junior Scuba Diving Open Water, Rescue and Master Diver Courses - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization Dive depth is limited to 40' but we are keeping our grandson to around 30' for a while.

Back to the topic: I like your comments re: the diver's personal responsibility. Divers know what they were trained for, it's not like there is some secret. It's all spelled out in the training manuals. An OW diver is limited to 60', I believe. Even that is a stretch as most were checked out in 30' of water! Many, if not most, routinely exceed their recommended depth limits without additional training. Some don't survive.

In the old NAUI program an OW I diver was limited to 40', OW II to 60' and AOW to recreational limits.

I can't come up with one scenario in which I would willing trust my life to another person. It is not in my nature to trust other people. I am singularly responsible for my actions and my survival. I will do what I can for others and hope I never get in a situation I can't get out of by myself.

I expect a DM to brief the group on the dive site, conditions and procedures. On some dives, the DM has acted as a guide. But as a guide to the entire group, not a babysitter to an individual. If the DM is paid to be a guide, it seems like that task will suffer if the DM also has to coddle unqualified divers. Now, a new diver that hires an individual DM for their personal attendance has every right to expect that DM to pay good attention to their diving.

My take (no doubt an unpopular one): every diver is responsible for their own actions and their own safety. They can not abdicate their responsibilities to a buddy or a DM. Ever...

Richard

 

[InTheDrink]

Forgetting about the fact that some people want all responsibility here or there, the dive community will be a safer place if, from this thread, new and experienced divers alike learn that there is no consistent answer as to where responsibility lies. TALK to the operator and the DM/DG/Ships Captain/First Mate/Janitor....whatever they are called. Make sure they know what you expect before you leave and make sure they have explained what they are "there for". There will be no false feelings of security and the site SHOULD reflect something you would be OK with.....unless they just ignored everything you said and just took your money.

You may have hit the nail on the head here. It does seem like there is no consistent answer. The actual product varies, even though it has the same name. I guess this is why the confusion exists.

The key question then needs to be how to make newly certified divers aware that they need to take full responsibility for themselves. I don't think the agencies are the right conduit - it would clearly damage sales.

One more thing, maybe an aside: I've variously heard that you need to be careful when you decide to become a DM as that is a professional rating and once you're professional there are certain legal responsibilities or liabilities you could incur in the event of an accident. Is this true and does this have any bearing on this discussion?

J

 

[boulderjohn]

Does anyone know if/where I could find the stats that would show number of scuba deaths relative to experience (number of dives)?

I have followed this entire mind-numbing thread and vowed I would not participate. Perhaps I can be helpful here.

I have posted on this topic often, since many people seem inclined to think that the opposite of what the reports convey is true. Here are two of my posts.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3837369-post148.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/278385-2007-dan-report-gas-management-fatalities.html

In recent years, there is not a strong correlation between new divers and fatalities. There is a much stronger correlation between age (older divers) and health (heart conditions and obesity).

Another interesting factor is that for the last decade being examined (1995-2005), the total number of deaths from scuba in the area being studied (North America) is more than 40% lower than the first decade of study (1970-1980).

DAN's statistics for North America contradict the general notion that new divers are more likely to die while diving or that divers are dying at higher rates than in the past.

 

[Cave Diver]

Now to gt back on the topic of dive masters.... This scares the hell out of me.

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...

We've beat the subject of DM responsibilities almost to death in this thread. However if I was going to take an educated guess, I'd bet that there was NOT a DM on this dive. It's much more likely that this person was an OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor).

My reason for thinking this is that Cayman requires foriegners to have a work permit in order to seek employment. The cost of this permit is usually absorbed by the employer. Since a DM has limited usefulness in teaching, in my experience, most of the dive op employees are instructors and just perform "DM duties" to give the employer the most bang for the buck.

Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...

We've beat the subject of DM responsibilities almost to death in this thread. However if I was going to take an educated guess, I'd bet that there was NOT a DM on this dive. It's much more likely that this person was an OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor).

My reason for thinking this is that Cayman requires foriegners to have a work permit in order to seek employment. The cost of this permit is usually absorbed by the employer. Since a DM has limited usefulness in teaching, in my experience, most of the dive op employees are instructors and just perform "DM duties" to give the employer the most bang for the buck.

Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

I think the OP mentioned that the DM in question was put on "teaching duty" while the investigation was going on. Yes this scares me but I think it would definitely confirm your suspicion.

In my view the only difference between a DM and OWSI is the OWSI has been taught the specific agency's teaching philosophy. So if anything perhaps his expectations were even higher for this individual then a DM would have.

 

[JCAT]

Good Post boulderjohn.

There are some on this thread that downright insist that a new diver is helpless and is an accident waiting to happen. I disagree with that mindset completely.

 

[InTheDrink]

Good Post boulderjohn.

There are some on this thread that downright insist that a new diver is helpless and is an accident waiting to happen. I disagree with that mindset completely.

No-one's saying every new diver is completely helpless. But I can assure you many are and indeed an accident waiting to happen were it not for the care of the overseeing dive professional.

 

[pilot fish]

It's an unrealiable poll since it was done on a Scuba board, any scuba board, where MOST of the respondents are experienced and already know what a "DM" on a dive boat will and won't do, is responsible for and is NOT responsible for. Most of us have had a vast array of "DM" over the years that run the gamut from dizzy Calypso joksters to expert DM's that you would trust diving with any day of the year, in any dive environment.

The accurate poll would ask newly minted divers right before they make first post cert dives. Most will think the "DM" will be as attentive as the person who did their check out dives with them. Um not really.

According to most on this board, the DMs responsibility is only to lead a dive and show us cool stuff, so why would this surprise you?