DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[Genesis]

Why should you EXPECT employment from merely taking a DM class? Heck, I wouldn't EXPECT employment if I became an instructor!

I don't EXPECT employment from taking a DM course.

However, "employment" means you're getting PAID. What is being talked about here isn't "employment" - there is no pay being exchanged for services; in fact, the DM is being expected to effectively pay the SHOP for the "privilege" of working there!

That's way backwards.

If you are selling a class, that's perfectly ok. The problem comes when you sell a class, then expect someone to effectively be not only an indentured servant, but to go beyond even THAT level of ignobility and expect the "professional" to pay YOU to be a staff member (in the form of required gear purchases.)

THAT is where the problem lies.

 

[Dryglove]

ZoCrowes255 once bubbled...

No, but they recieved the training at cost.

How do you determine "at cost" for training. I understand there are books but the rest is how much your time is worth to you. I have never seen a jr leadership course available for the price of books. Its not like a product that is sold to you for a certain price or is it?

 

[jepuskar]

Well, I guess to answer your question it is all a matter of perception.

Do they require them to do the skills, YES they do. So does that make them certified open water divers, YES it does.

I guess what I meant is, they just try and push em thru the PADI system to get the money. From a business perspective, this is how they make money, nothing wrong with that, except the students are led to believe there is some sort of accomplishment in doing these programs when actually they are just an excuse for PADI and the LDS to make more money by giving the student a sense of security in their diving.

In all actuality, the student should get out and dive more. For those that will argue that taking the AOW does give the student more dive time, I can't argue that, but it is an expensive price to pay for instructor supervision. I went through the classes, I know how it is.

The rescue class, OTOH, was a very beneficial class, but ohh wait, need to get AOW first ($$$$$)...

What does AOW do for you in regards to Rescue?? NOTHING except to make you dig iun your pocket more.

Man, am a little whining biznitch today or what? hehe

 

[ZoCrowes255]

jepuskar once bubbled...
Well, I guess to answer your question it is all a matter of perception.

Do they require them to do the skills, YES they do. So does that make them certified open water divers, YES it does.

I guess what I meant is, they just try and push em thru the PADI system to get the money. From a business perspective, this is how they make money, nothing wrong with that, except the students are led to believe there is some sort of accomplishment in doing these programs when actually they are just an excuse for PADI and the LDS to make more money by giving the student a sense of security in their diving.

In all actuality, the student should get out and dive more. For those that will argue that taking the AOW does give the student more dive time, I can't argue that, but it is an expensive price to pay for instructor supervision. I went through the classes, I know how it is.

The rescue class, OTOH, was a very beneficial class, but ohh wait, need to get AOW first ($$$$$)...

What does AOW do for you in regards to Rescue?? NOTHING except to make you dig iun your pocket more.

Man, am a little whining biznitch today or what? hehe

Nah you're not whining. You have some reservations and that's fine.

My question really is are they letting people who can perform the skills but should not be going to openwater go to openwater?

I am not a PADI Instructor so I am not sure what their Advanced class has in it but my Advanced class consists of a night dive (required,) deep dive (required,) navigation (required and we get very in depth with it,) rescue (panicked [sp?] diver, unconcious diver on bottom & self rescue,) light salvage (knots and small lift bag use,) and an extensive skills review. We work on getting their lead down, perfect bouyancy control etc. It's very helpful in getting a NEW diver more comfortable in the water and they can do it in controlled conditions. I think it's a very useful class BUT it should not be called Advanced. It does not make you a true advanced diver it just allows you access to new skills in a controlled setting. NAUI used to call it Openwater II and I wish they still did. That is a better name for it.

It sounds like your shop is just going the hard sell route. I'm not a very big fan of that but whatever works for them works. We have the soft sell approach. We mention Advanced, Nitrox, Rescue etc in passing but we don't say "YOU NEED TO TAKE IT!" or anything like that. I don't agree with those that do but for some people it works. I just don't have the personality for it.

I hope everything works out for you in your divemaster training.

 

[jepuskar]

This may sound strange, but some of the people on here, people I have never met, have actually helped me become a better diver.

Not only from suggestions, or questions directly answered, but by introducing me to concepts or ideas about diving. I have adapted my diving config/style to some of these concepts that I agree with and I am very happy right now.

I have taken a step out of my PADI training and reflected back on it and can see the problems, and especially now I see first hand some problems. But then I realize not everyone wants out of diving what I want out of it, what that is, I am not quite sure, but for a recreational diver, I take my diving pretty serious...but I still enjoy it and have fun.

I have passed on my knowledge, albeit it small, to my gf and I enjoyed doing soo...it is cool to see improvement. But it is her doing, not mine, she has a desire to learn and improve her diving, just like I have since day one.

Not all divers think this way and that scares me.

I think PADI should rename their Advanced Open Water, but they wont because it is a Marketing tool. The word Advanced makes newly certified divers think they will become better divers after achieving the ADVANCED cert.

I was helping out with a Rescue class a couple weeks ago and one of the guys in there just got certified a couple weeks before that, I remembered him. I wonder if he is going on to DiveMaster soon, makes me wonder even more about this program.

Ok, I am just on a roll today aren't I? See what happens when I don't go diving on the weekends? :upset:

 

[diverbrian]

and as such, I am under the restrictions that are discussed here (somewhat). What I dive when I am not doing my training or on the shop's meager payroll (basically comped nitrox fills and equipment discounts) is my business. What I wear when working for the shop is their business and I respect that. I knew the rules when I put down the hefty chunk of change required to be take the class.

I also have no problem with a small shop NOT running a DM mill. Our shop simply has NOT had the open water classes available to finish my training (students tend to do the pool and classroom up here and do their open water in warmer climates ). The instructor candidates are being held up by this as well. It simply wouldn't make sense to train someone that wouldn't help the shop eventually.

As I am a regular customer of the LDS, all of my gear was sold to me by the LDS. Again, no problem.

In short, the restrictions, to me, aren't actual restrictions. If I don't like them, I am not required to assist with classes or DM fun dives and charters.

Jep, I will submit for your case you made the right decision. In my case, I enjoy working with the instructors that I have come to know and watching new divers progress. So, for people like me, we make our decisions as well.

 

[jepuskar]

I am not required to assist with classes either, I just like too. However, I value my decision more as a diver to dive with what equipment I feel like, more than I value helping students.

After getting this cert, I'm not even sure I am going to get Insurance, that is how fed up with this I am. I think they are losing a customer.

That is another thing, I have spent an insane amount of money in that store in the last year and really nothing to show for it, but grief when I decide to buy prodcuts they dont sell.

Ahh screw it, I turned in my Emergency Assistance Plan today, got my swim left to do and that is all she wrote.

Jason

 

[netmage]

Jep,

Be glad you didn't show up to help. I was down at Haigh taking my rescue class and the training area looked like the biggest cattle herd I'd ever seen. They had 8-10 picnic tables strewn about jam packed of people doing open water checkouts - needless to say visibility over on the shallow side was not very good - heck wasn't much better on the deep side.

We were shoved off one of the platforms as 30 some odd divers walked down the road to enter the water and were looking for platforms to take over...

 

[jepuskar]

I would have been just one more person added to that cattle herd...no wait, I dive Halcyon...I wasnt allowed.

ut:

 

[ScubaRon]

for the LDS to ask that their DM wear gear similar to what the student are being trained on. Although you are not allowed to instruct, you are setting an example for the students.

When acting as a DM your primary concern need to be your students, and if you need to be slightly uncomfortable for that: tough luck. It's part of being a diving professional.

Of course it is your right to refuse, which is your choice.
ScubaRon