Dive training question: ground work?

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One sport deals with air, the other sport deals with water. In one sport you are at altitude going up then coming down and you are dealing with air and air resistance. You can still breath air. The other sport you are going down then coming up and you are learning how to breath under water.

Since I know nothing of sky diving I can't and won't comment on that. But in doing training on the ground and learning to pull a rip cord you do all of that on the ground in a controlled environment before you get on a plane. For scuba diving you learn to do the requisite skills in a controlled environment in the shallow end of a swimming pool. Since the essential part of training includes feeling the effects adding or venting air from a BC (Buoyancy Compensator) you can't learn or get a feel for this on land. But before you get on a boat you train to control your buoyancy in the confined environment of a swimming pool. You won't be an expert but you should at least have some proficiency.
 
It's largely a marketing thing, but also speaks to adult learning principles. (Plus, one obvious thing.)

Marketing: Get people in the water as soon as possible, since that's what they've signed up for. Get them excited and interested. Additionally, in resort locations you're dealing with students who have paid a lot of money to travel somewhere with bright sun, clear water, and pretty fishies. Telling them that you're going to spend several days in a classroom before taking them diving will NOT go over very well.

Adult learning principles: Putting things that you just learned in the classroom/academics to practical use as soon as possible after the academic session enhances learning.

Lastly - although people like to make the comparison between scuba diving and sky diving, the two have absolutely nothing in common. Specific to scuba training, it's very easy to work your way into actually doing skills in the water - initial/simple skills in confined water, more advanced skills in confined and open water, and ultimately putting them altogether in open water. You can't do this in skydiving.

"OK, today we're going to go up and learn how to jump out of the plane. Tomorrow... we'll learn how to open the parachute."

I think the attrition rate would be unacceptably high.

:d

McDonald's drive thru type training.

skydiving.jpg
 
I'm sure, like Scuba Diving, it all depends on your instructor. Whether you'll be jumping off a boat or out of a plane, please choose wisely.
 
You could always have the student jump off a footstool. ;)

now that's funny. I have done the jump from a stool bit during training. We have also jumped from mock aircraft and on zip lines. Task MUST be performed until you pass, PERIOD.

Of course this was before civilian available wind tunnels. My oldest daughter trained in the tunnel with a bunch of ground work thrown in. I went through the hard knocks of all ground work.
 
now that's funny. I have done the jump from a stool bit during training. We have also jumped from mock aircraft and on zip lines. Task MUST be performed until you pass, PERIOD.

As my cave instructor said about lost line drills "The good news is, if you get this wrong on a real dive... that'll probably be the last time you ever need to do it."
 
if you compare to skydiving, you have to factor in the training style done if they have access to a wind tunnel first. Without a wind tunnel they are very different, and would be comparable to teaching scuba diving if the only water you had access to was 150ft down and there was no pools or shallow confined water to train in.

When you add wind tunnels to sky diving, they give you a quick down and dirty of how to not die, then let you play in the wind tunnels for quite a while to "figure it out". Then a bit more discussion on how not to die when you actually jump out of the plane and how to land safely, then you do it. Comparable to how to make the adjustment from diving in a pool where something going wrong is highly unlikely, to doing your OWT on a charter boat.

Scuba is also a tiered sport where as skydiving is pretty much, your ass is jumping out of a plane. Doesn't particularly matter if it's at 6000ft with an almost immediate deployment of the chute for training dives, or 18000ft, once that chute is open it is all the same dive and you're going 115mph assuming belly down position prior to deploying that chute regardless of how high you are *no halo jumping, but even that is pretty standard once you get below 15k feet, just have to deal with low O2 and some other things*.
Scuba is much more variable where you can have a nice pretty 30 ft reef dive where not a whole lot can go wrong and you might as well be in a pool, or you can be doing a drift dive or 120ft wreck dive in high current. Very different atmospheres. The agencies have dumped the courses down to basically be for 30ft reef diving, which is why the training/briefing is comparable to that of indoor skydiving.

Once you get into "real diving" the on deck discussions get a lot more intense and the land training gets a lot more intense. Cave training has lectures every night and land drills almost every day. Since the diving industry is out to make money, if they did that at recreational levels, there would be a lot less people diving because it removes the instant satisfaction of the sport which is what PADI and the Dive Shops are banking on, get them in, steal all of their money, spit them out, start over. Skydiving has a much higher retention rate, but a lot lower certification rate. This is what diving was 30+ years ago, but not anymore.

PADI started certifying in 1967. It took them until 1982 to certify the amount of divers that it certified in 2013 *right under 1m*. It took them until the end of 1991 to certify the amount of divers they certified in the 4 year period from 2010-2013. They certified in the last 4 years, the same amount of divers they certified in the first 25 years of the organization. They currently represent a 50% marketshare in the industry certifying almost 1m new members each year and have pumped out over 22 million certifications since 1967. There are not currently 22 million active divers in the world.

Not sure about skydiving, I work with DoD for chute design but not in the recreational sector. Looking at USPA, they average right around 35k memberships/year for the last 5 years, but it's not up much from the 30k ish/year starting in 1990. Granted it's double that from the 70's and 80's, but scuba followed a similar trend just on a different order of magnitude. With membership that low, they have a much higher retention percentage and much more dedicated people. Think of how many skydivers you know and how many of them dive regularly. People will get certified on scuba, take maybe one trip per year, most of the time it is less than that. You can't do that in skydiving because it is much more dangerous than easy recreational scuba diving is despite having lower fatality rates.


Sorry for the long winded posts, but while scuba used to be a fairly decent comparison to skydiving back in the 60's-80's, recreational diving needs to be compared to indoor skydiving now while technical diving is a more fair comparison to actual skydiving.

tbone1004, I'm wondering how many jumps you've made?

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 02:34 PM ----------

As my cave instructor said about lost line drills "The good news is, if you get this wrong on a real dive... that'll probably be the last time you ever need to do it."

was this task performed UW or as ground work prior?

---------- Post added October 8th, 2014 at 02:35 PM ----------

I'm sure, like Scuba Diving, it all depends on your instructor. Whether you'll be jumping off a boat or out of a plane, please choose wisely.

the instructor came with the college course I'm taking. No choice for Scientific Diving.
 
was this task performed UW or as ground work prior?

We did a fair bit of land work, including line work. I don't specifically recall doing lost line stuff on land. Wouldn't really make much sense.
 
In cave class, we did a lot of land drills, and we also did drills in shallow open water. In fact, in all my technical and quasitechnical training, we did a lot of drills in shallow open water.

I've tried to think of what more we could do with our students on land that would help them. We do spend time on airway control and equalization techniques on land, and mask skills standing in shallow water. After that, it just seems more productive to get students horizontal and on a regulator. We really want to wean them from the vertical, gravity on the feet orientation of land life, to the horizontal and weightless environment of scuba.
 
I've made quite a few but like I said, am working currently on new chute designs for the PJ's and much prefer to go under water than out of planes. BTW, the new SOCOM chutes are pretty badass with active synthetic muscle fibers controlling baffles...

The post was obviously simplified, but the point still stands that there is a much larger difference between a 30 ft reef dive and a 130ft offshore wreck dive than there is between a 6kft jump and a 15k ft jump. That 6k ft jump has all of the same things to go wrong as the 15k and the 15k you have a bit more things going on, but once that chute is deployed it is all pretty much the same assuming the weather is comparable. HAHO's are the ones that require some serious training to make sure you end up where you actually want to go since you regularly drift 15+ miles but civi's don't usually partake in those.
 
I've tried to think of what more we could do with our students on land that would help them... We really want to wean them from the vertical, gravity on the feet orientation of land life, to the horizontal and weightless environment of scuba.

I do get my students to the prone position on the floor or grass to teach finning and proper trim. I signal "superman position" with my arms extended forward or "too cool for school" with my arms crossed across my chest. Doing this on land right before confined water sessions has worked well for me underwater.
 

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