Dive Talk Go Rebreather

[rddvet]

Why?

Quite a few reasons, but I think the CDS does conservation and property management better than training, and we need a strong group pushing conservation and land management. I don't think the CDS has been the "leader" in cave instruction for some time, whereas they should be the standard which everyone tries to mimic. . I have never liked the cavern-intro-apprentice-full approach. Over the years I have seen too many intro divers pushing way too fast into the next class because Intro is too restrictive. I know there have been changes in recent years to address some of this, but I also think the CDS is too slow to adapt and change historically.
And lastly, the CDS can't even manage membership properly. I was given a "temporary life membership" for multiple years simply because the CDS couldn't figure out how to accept my payment for a family membership due to all of the "database issues." I went round and round with Adam and multiple other people just trying to pay my membership fee and rather than take my money I got a free membership (which sounds great, but not what I want. i'm a person who pays their bills). I don't even know if my "free" membership is even valid anymore because no one can give me a straight answer. I understand it's a volunteer organization but from an outsider's perspective, it's a disheveled mess of an organization.
I have just had so many negative experiences with the CDS over the years, it's not an organization I keep in high regard anymore. Meanwhile, my wife is working with the CDS conservation committe and I see good things being done.
I think spring and cave conservation could be something the CDS could become a leader of, but I don't feel the same about the training side.
Just my 2 cents and obvisouly my opinions are based on personal experience that may differ from others.
And before someone says "if you don't like what you see, volunteer", I did try several times in the past. I volunteered to help out 3 or 4 times and the experiences with bad attitudes, self-serving people, and lack of clear organization ruined it for me. I'll spend my time and money with a group like the NFSA.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I have never liked the cavern-intro-apprentice-full approach. Over the years I have seen too many intro divers pushing way too fast into the next class because Intro is too restrictive.

The NSS-CDS has not had an "intro" cave course in several years. We have had a cavern course for several years that does not count toward any type "Cave" certification.

The entry level cave course for the NSS-CDS is "Apprentice Cave" which at the discretion of the certifying instructor can sanction after certification:

• 1/3 of starting volume as penetration gas
• More than the prior 1000-foot restriction on penetration distance
• Decompression dives can be allowed
• "Jumps" off of the main line are allowed
• The "Apprentice Agreement" is attached

Perhaps you have confused CDS with XXX who still has an intro to cave course with no flexibility to alter the restrictions of that certification. I see these divers routinely practicing what you have suggested as too far too fast, ignoring the limits of their "Introduction to Cave" certifications.

As far as membership and database issues I cannot comment as I have no role in that aspect of the NSS-CDS. My only role is in training and seeking members to run for positions on the Board of Directors.

I hope my simple explanation has helped to clear up some of the confusion for you.

 

[rjack321]

I'm not so sure. TDI standards are silent on the topic, but NSS-CDS standards state Thirds on the CCR consumables:

Not saying it is or isn't in their standards but there was zero mention of this in my CDS crossover.

 

[rjack321]

Let's forget about the specific numbers in terms of hours. Use whatever numbers you want for your rebreather scrubber duration. Why is rule of 1/3 not applicable to CCR scrubber duration?

I dunno mate, probably because nobody can agree on what the numerator is in the first place. Especially in warm shallow-ish water with modest workloads which are far far away from CE temps, depths and workloads. Or in other cases (sidewinder *cough*), there's no objective testing to base a duration on at all. If you're WAGing your numerator then dividing by 3 is basically just mental wanking.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

What is 1/3 of a scrubber? How many minutes is 1/3 of a scrubber for you? For me?
Can you spell rhetorical?

 

[InWay2Deep]

I dunno mate, probably because nobody can agree on what the numerator is in the first place. Especially in warm shallow-ish water with modest workloads which are far far away from CE temps, depths and workloads. Or in other cases (sidewinder *cough*), there's no objective testing to base a duration on at all. If you're WAGing your numerator then dividing by 3 is basically just mental wanking.

So Yes I was taught NSS-CDS and was taught 1/3's for scrubber, clearly I see that is not an agreed upon 'standard'. So how does the rest of the world plan CCR dives? So far in this thread I have heard 1/2, plan to BO when you go hypercapnic and 'it depends'. Are others just compiling a feelings journal based on time/temps and adjusting duration for every dive based on temps and planned workload? Not trying to be difficult here, just want to understand.

 

[rjack321]

So Yes I was taught NSS-CDS and was taught 1/3's for scrubber, clearly I see that is not an agreed upon 'standard'. So how does the rest of the world plan CCR dives? So far in this thread I have heard 1/2, plan to BO when you go hypercapnic and 'it depends'. Are others just compiling a feelings journal based on time/temps and adjusting duration for every dive based on temps and planned workload? Not trying to be difficult here, just want to understand.

Shrugs so you never questioned "1/3rd of what number"? The $1000 RMS system people have in their Revos is just for funzies?

I haven't heard anyone say they just dive until they go hypercapnic and then BO (if this was a plan then presumably every dive like some sort of BO J valve)

 

[rddvet]

The NSS-CDS has not had an "intro" cave course in several years. We have had a cavern course for several years that does not count toward any type "Cave" certification.

The entry level cave course for the NSS-CDS is "Apprentice Cave" which at the discretion of the certifying instructor can sanction after certification:

• 1/3 of starting volume as penetration gas
• More than the prior 1000-foot restriction on penetration distance
• Decompression dives can be allowed
• "Jumps" off of the main line are allowed
• The "Apprentice Agreement" is attached

Perhaps you have confused CDS with XXX who still has an intro to cave course with no flexibility to alter the restrictions of that certification. I see these divers routinely practicing what you have suggested as too far too fast, ignoring the limits of their "Introduction to Cave" certifications.

As far as membership and database issues I cannot comment as I have no role in that aspect of the NSS-CDS. My only role is in training and seeking members to run for positions on the Board of Directors.

I hope my simple explanation has helped to clear up some of the confusion for you.

I know the intro has gone away. Thats why I said I know some of this has been addressed, and I do prefer the new course path that the CDS has. But these are just my opinions over about 13-14 years being a cave diver and interacting with the CDS and having bad expereiences repeatedly. The one thing I see the CDS is starting to do very well is conservation and property management. IMO (and I'm sure many disagree) I think the CDS should focus on that aspect and let the other agencies take over training. I have seen some good things happening in the past few years at the CDS. Unfortunately not enough to change my mind.
One thing I have observed and I'm sure you have as well is the childish behavior and in-fighting that happens in the CDS. This doesn't seem to be happening when it comes to those involved in the conservation aspect of the CDS.

 

[PEDiver]

childish behavior and in-fighting

In cave country? Where???

 

[InWay2Deep]

Shrugs so you never questioned "1/3rd of what number"? The $1000 RMS system people have in their Revos is just for funzies?

I haven't heard anyone say they just dive until they go hypercapnic and then BO (if this was a plan then presumably every dive like some sort of BO J valve)

Not really, I was told 'around' what to expect out of the sidewinder when I took that training and my limit would really be the 2L O2 bottle, not the scrubber anyway (assuming new sorb/full bottle). I don't dive a revo and I do not want to turn this thread into a CCR bashing session, if that's where it's going, I'm out. If there is no 'rule' on scrubber consumables or any way to plan for it then fine, I'll just keep building up experience.