Although I know Doppler personally, that's not the rule number 1 I was thinking of.....but they're all rules I do live by. 
I think I'm gonna pass on this one
I think I'm gonna pass on this one
Dive Professional Legal Limbo
- Thread starter OutdoorStud
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I think the unmentionable "rule #1" is "Don't dive with unsafe divers"
I have yet to hear of a DM being successfully sued for anything. If anyone knows of any cases I would like to hear of them. That is why I don't think DM insurance is important. You liability is so limited.
I have heard of families sueing buddies of deceased divers but still they never seem to go to litigation.
An uninsured DM is a less likely target for litigation.
The original poster is from the UK where IIRC civil litigation is decided by a judge and not a jury. One of the reasons US litigation has such high awards is because jurys are easier to sway with emotion than judges.
Bottom line, don't worry, be diving.
I have heard of families sueing buddies of deceased divers but still they never seem to go to litigation.
An uninsured DM is a less likely target for litigation.
The original poster is from the UK where IIRC civil litigation is decided by a judge and not a jury. One of the reasons US litigation has such high awards is because jurys are easier to sway with emotion than judges.
Bottom line, don't worry, be diving.
iluvdiving
Guest
Many - not all- states (can't speak for foreign countries) have "Good Samaritan" laws that protect "rescuers." So long as you act "reasonably", you cannot be sued. They can still try to sue, mind you, but it would more than likely be thrown out.
You don't have a legal duty to help in most cases. But, ethically, would you just stand by? I doubt most people would if they were capable of helping.
You don't have a legal duty to help in most cases. But, ethically, would you just stand by? I doubt most people would if they were capable of helping.
spacemanspiff1974
Contributor
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Attorney here.
Northing that I post here is to be considered legal advice to anyone, especially since I do not know the legal jurisdiction in which you will be diving.
However, I will give you a couple of bits of legal information.
As posted earlier, many states have what is known as a Good Samaritan law. This protects people who render aid from being successfully sued from damages which result from providing the aid. However, the aid that is rendered must be reasonable under the circumstances. For instance, cutting off circulation at the thigh would not be reasonable for a superficial cut on the foot.
Also, in many, if not most jurisdictions, you are not responsible for saving someone unless you are otherwise legally obligated to do so for some other reason. For example, you are legally obligated to save your minor child from drowning if possible. You are legally obligated to save your friend from drowning if you pushed him in the water (if possible). You may be legally obligated to assist another diver if you are diving with that person in a contractual capacity of instructor to student. However, in a capacity of a group of friends who go diving together (one of whom happens to be a divemaster), there should be no obligation.
If you are still worried, you can always have your friends sign a simple contract, but this is probably overkill for what you are describing.
Northing that I post here is to be considered legal advice to anyone, especially since I do not know the legal jurisdiction in which you will be diving.
However, I will give you a couple of bits of legal information.
As posted earlier, many states have what is known as a Good Samaritan law. This protects people who render aid from being successfully sued from damages which result from providing the aid. However, the aid that is rendered must be reasonable under the circumstances. For instance, cutting off circulation at the thigh would not be reasonable for a superficial cut on the foot.
Also, in many, if not most jurisdictions, you are not responsible for saving someone unless you are otherwise legally obligated to do so for some other reason. For example, you are legally obligated to save your minor child from drowning if possible. You are legally obligated to save your friend from drowning if you pushed him in the water (if possible). You may be legally obligated to assist another diver if you are diving with that person in a contractual capacity of instructor to student. However, in a capacity of a group of friends who go diving together (one of whom happens to be a divemaster), there should be no obligation.
If you are still worried, you can always have your friends sign a simple contract, but this is probably overkill for what you are describing.
This has been discussed in many incarnations. Here is a good reply from H2Andy in this thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=112671&highlight=duty+of+care
It all starts to get sticky with your buddy and his/her lawyer. They didn't pay for your services; therefore, did you own them a duty of care?
No matter the situation, if the injured party finds out that you are a DM/Instr. you will be named in the suit. Your insurance should provide for your defense to get you removed from the suit.
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=112671&highlight=duty+of+care
H2Andy:
It all starts to get sticky with your buddy and his/her lawyer. They didn't pay for your services; therefore, did you own them a duty of care?
No matter the situation, if the injured party finds out that you are a DM/Instr. you will be named in the suit. Your insurance should provide for your defense to get you removed from the suit.
nolatom
Contributor
Also lawyer here, also not intended to be legal advice, no attorney-client relationship, "yada yada" (in Latin).
Sometimes I think the names PADI and others use for our certification levels make it tempting for the uninformed (including juries) to look for liability absent a legal duty--"Rescue Diver", "Dive Master", "Master Scuba Diver", and even "Advanced Open Water Diver" all make it sound to the uninitiated as though it's your duty to know all, see all, rescue all, supervise all, be Master of all. It might be better if they just said "level one, two, three", etc.
As pointed out, Good Samaritan laws or the Rescue Doctrine as a defense vary from state to state.
All that said, in the water, if you think of legal liability first, and what's the right thing to do second, you'll probably end up behind the 8-ball both operationally and legally. Do what you think is right underwater, then defend it later if you have to.
Sometimes I think the names PADI and others use for our certification levels make it tempting for the uninformed (including juries) to look for liability absent a legal duty--"Rescue Diver", "Dive Master", "Master Scuba Diver", and even "Advanced Open Water Diver" all make it sound to the uninitiated as though it's your duty to know all, see all, rescue all, supervise all, be Master of all. It might be better if they just said "level one, two, three", etc.
As pointed out, Good Samaritan laws or the Rescue Doctrine as a defense vary from state to state.
All that said, in the water, if you think of legal liability first, and what's the right thing to do second, you'll probably end up behind the 8-ball both operationally and legally. Do what you think is right underwater, then defend it later if you have to.
OP
Thanks for all your replies, there have been many good points, of course i would do my best in the water and then worry about it later. I agree with the points made about padi's titles being misleading to non divers. Its just reasuring to know that i won't be held responsible for things happening on a boat im on other then when i have an influence in those events.
Dont dive with unsafe diver's is a sound philosophy but how do you _know_ theyre safe or unsafe before you dive with them, obviously theyre are hints, equipment bearing and interviews, but youll never know how someone truly dives until you dive with them (unless theyre obviously "in over their depth" and even so, i would consider it partly my responsibility to help them become a safe diver).
thanks once again
Dave
This kinda makes me glad im from england.
Dont dive with unsafe diver's is a sound philosophy but how do you _know_ theyre safe or unsafe before you dive with them, obviously theyre are hints, equipment bearing and interviews, but youll never know how someone truly dives until you dive with them (unless theyre obviously "in over their depth" and even so, i would consider it partly my responsibility to help them become a safe diver).
thanks once again
Dave
This kinda makes me glad im from england.
miketsp
Contributor
If you travel the rules may change a lot from country to country, which is why most of my more qualified friends only show a basic c-card when on holiday.
Here in Brazil we have an even stranger situation.
The only official body representing diving is the CBPDS (Brazilian Confederation for Fishing and Subaquatic Sports).
http://www.cbpds.com.br/
This is officially recognised as the Federal Entity administering diving and fishing. And they are affiliated to and represent CMAS. So that means that the only officially/legally recognised c-card is CMAS.
There is then a rule that states that the most qualified diver on the boat is legally responsible. So this leads to the fact that a single diver on board with a basic 1 star CMAS c-card is technically responsible even if surrounded by PADI/NAUI/SSI instructors as he is the only one with a legally recognised qualification! The others are not qualified in the eyes of the law.
PS. CBPDS is also supposed to have the EXCLUSIVE right to qualify amateur divers.
http://www.antares.com.br/cbpds/html/consulados.htm
Here in Brazil we have an even stranger situation.
The only official body representing diving is the CBPDS (Brazilian Confederation for Fishing and Subaquatic Sports).
http://www.cbpds.com.br/
This is officially recognised as the Federal Entity administering diving and fishing. And they are affiliated to and represent CMAS. So that means that the only officially/legally recognised c-card is CMAS.
There is then a rule that states that the most qualified diver on the boat is legally responsible. So this leads to the fact that a single diver on board with a basic 1 star CMAS c-card is technically responsible even if surrounded by PADI/NAUI/SSI instructors as he is the only one with a legally recognised qualification! The others are not qualified in the eyes of the law.
PS. CBPDS is also supposed to have the EXCLUSIVE right to qualify amateur divers.
http://www.antares.com.br/cbpds/html/consulados.htm
miketsp:
Any compentent lawyer will pull the list of passengers and do the research to see everyone's certification level. From a legal standpoint, flashing your non-professional card really doesn't solve anything. A clever lawyer will then twist it around to see why you were hiding your "better" credentials.
However, flashing an "Ice Diver" card in Belize is always good for a laugh.
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