Dive Master Certification

[scubasean]

Mark is right...BIG difference in WHY you are getting the certification.

If you are actually planning to work as a divemaster and want to learn the JOB, then more time is needed.

My problem though with the "quick class" is that the candidates may have a false sense of qualifications. I would rather put them through the intensive course teaching them all the ins-and-outs rather than skim them through by basic standard requirements.

Well, the test is meant to be the determining event that says you've learned enough to start the job...

I know of few jobs where you go in knowing it all...DM is no different. If you know that you are at the bottom, when having passed the DM tests, and then you view the cert as a license to learn more, then you are probably fine...

If you view the cert to not be enough, then lobby for the requirements to be changed...

This is somewhat akin to getting your BS degree...Surely you didn't think you knew it all the first day of your first job after graduation, even though you met the degree requirements? In fact, you were probably arguably fairly "dangerous", and mentored by someone more senior.

 

[Christi]

Well, the test is meant to be the determining event that says you've learned enough to start the job...

I know of few jobs where you go in knowing it all...DM is no different. If you know that you are at the bottom, when having passed the DM tests, and then you view the cert as a license to learn more, then you are probably fine...

If you view the cert to not be enough, then lobby for the requirements to be changed...

This is somewhat akin to getting your BS degree...Surely you didn't think you knew it all the first day of your first job after graduation, even though you met the degree requirements? In fact, you were probably arguably fairly "dangerous", and mentored by someone more senior.

But even with the "go pro" plan Mark was referring to, they still do not go in knowing it all. It is a constant learning process.

The way we teach it here is to learn the job. My DM candidates dive as much as possible on the boat and learn as much as I can give them. Keep in mind that alot of the people who do their DM course here are those who actually want to work as a DM, so the whole course is an internship if you will.

The standards for tis course set forth by PADI are recommended minimums. They give us reasonable flexibility to add more time or practical applications if we feel the candidate needs mor work or exposure depending on what their objectives are.

Hope this helped.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

My DM course started in late April/Early May. The classes and pool work took about 8 weeks meeting once per week. However, I interned several classes, ranging from Open Water and Nitrox through Rescue. I received my card in October or November.

At that point I felt comfortable working with reasonably squared away students. I was not assigned to work with "problem children" until the next year. Now, I'm regularly assigned to work with difficult students. However, the ability to work safely with these people takes time and experience to develop.

IMHO, doing the course at a resort is an utter and complete waste of money for a few reasons. First, you're on vacation. Unless you've got a ton of free time, would you really want to spend your entire vacation working classes. Alternatively, if your instructor uses the "hypothetical" approach to the class, do you want to spend your vacation running scenarios?

Second, even if you complete the course in a month, or in the 10 days suggested by Cancun Mark, do you believe that you will be qualified? I've been working as an AI for a few years. I'm still surprised by the creativity that students display in trying to kill themselves and their instructor.

Third, IMHO, its worth it to take the course in the environment where you will be working classes and through the shop where you will be teaching. Doing so allows you to learn how students react in the local environment. With regard to the second point, my LDS won't take on someone as a DM, AI or instructor unless we know them well. That means that someone who shows up with a card from a resort in Coz, or anywhere else, should plan on spending a season interning with us before they are turned loose with students.

Of course, the second and third points are only applicable if you plan on working classes. If you're not, however, then why would you want the card?

 

[TwoTanks]

My Divemaster class took 9 months, and I was first to finish in my class. I did 35 pool and OW sessions with various classes. It gave me lots of time to work with students (and different instructors) and see the way they do things. I did 3 dives just for the map (in 5' vis).

If you take a 2 week class then it really is just for show, there's far too much to learn about dealing with students to do it in a short time. I also worked classes with 8 different instructors and got a good sense of how different instructors use different methods and have different strengths & weaknesses.

Remember, A divemaster is a professional, new and inexperienced divers will rely on you, if you make a mistake its not just your butt anymore, also you may need to rescue one of them some time, so you should really know how to do it.

TT

 

[Christi]

My DM course started in late April/Early May. The classes and pool work took about 8 weeks meeting once per week. However, I interned several classes, ranging from Open Water and Nitrox through Rescue. I received my card in October or November.

IMHO, doing the course at a resort is an utter and complete waste of money for a few reasons. First, you're on vacation. Unless you've got a ton of free time, would you really want to spend your entire vacation working classes. Alternatively, if your instructor uses the "hypothetical" approach to the class, do you want to spend your vacation running scenarios?

Second, even if you complete the course in a month, or in the 10 days suggested by Cancun Mark, do you believe that you will be qualified. I've been working as an AI for a few years. I'm still surprised by the creativity that students display in trying to kill themselves and their instructor.

Third, IMHO, its worth it to take the course in the environment where you will be working classes and through the shop where you will be teaching. Doing so allows you to learn how students react in the local environment. With regard to the second point, my LDS won't take on someone as a DM, AI or instructor unless we know them well. That means that someone who shows up with a card from a resort in Coz, or anywhere else, should plan on spending a season interning with us before they are turned loose with students.

Of course, the second and third points are only applicable if you plan on working classes. If you're not, however, then why would you want the card?

First of all, whether taking the DM course here is "an utter and complete waste of money" is relative and is up to the individual DM candidate to decide for themselves based on their objectives of taking the course. I do agree that taking the couse in the environment where you plan to work has its advantages.

Second, the DM candidates I have had came here specifically for the DM training. They planned this in advance and were not expecting a vacation. I make this clear to anyone who inquires about the class.

Third, I do not use the "hypothetical" approach. I average 10 to 15 certifications a month (all private instruction). My DM candidates have the opportunity to participate in several actual courses, as well as diving almost daily assisting the DM on boat dives and leading certified divers.

Fourth, going by what you said, you spent a total of four to five months (May - Oct), meeting once per week and interning with classes. That is actually less class time than someone doing their course here over a four week period, working on the course full-time (daily from 7:00 am until 4:00 or 5:00 pm minimum), in an actual diving environment. My DM candidates average about 250 hours of classsroom and intership time.

Despite what you may think about "resort area" instructors...keep in mind that this is our full-time job, not a part-time weekend or evening job. We have more than sufficient hands-on experience and you will find some of the most qualified divemasters and instructors in the world here.

While we may not be familiar with the diving in your area, I can say the same about instructors and divemasters from other areas. You would be surprised at how many divemaster and instructors have never even done an ocean dive...or who cannot dive in a current or manage their air in same, let alone teach in one.

Alot of it is about attitude. While I hate to see anyone fail, it is comical at times to see macho instructors/divemasters with overinflated egos have a hard time diving here. The key is realizing and accepting the limitations of your training and experience, no matter what level certification you have.

I have much more respect for a diver who admits that they have never dove in th ocean, or never dove in a current, etc. than one who says "I'm a divemaster and I have 500 lake dives and I don't want to be put on the boat with beginners." The ironic thing, is that I have actually had these, and the "beginners" handled themselves better in the water than this guy.

I would never presume to go to an area I am unfamiliar with and boast about my credentials and how many dives I have. It really doesn't matter...what matters is how you handle yourself and recognizing limitations.

It's ALL relative.

 

[Christi]

My Divemaster class took 9 months, and I was first to finish in my class. I did 35 pool and OW sessions with various classes. It gave me lots of time to work with students (and different instructors) and see the way they do things. I did 3 dives just for the map (in 5' vis).

If you take a 2 week class then it really is just for show, there's far too much to learn about dealing with students to do it in a short time. I also worked classes with 8 different instructors and got a good sense of how different instructors use different methods and have different strengths & weaknesses.

Remember, A divemaster is a professional, new and inexperienced divers will rely on you, if you make a mistake its not just your butt anymore, also you may need to rescue one of them some time, so you should really know how to do it.

TT

Bravo! I should have added that it is also a vey good idea to work with different instructors/divemasters to see different styles and methods for doing things.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

First, Christi, I'm not even suggesting that your course is not a good one or that it is a waste of money.

First of all, whether taking the DM course here is "an utter and complete waste of money" is relative and is up to the individual DM candidate to decide for themselves based on their objectives of taking the course. I do agree that taking the couse in the environment where you plan to work has its advantages.

If their objective is to work with students in a warm water environment, then I would not disagree. If they just want the card, then I believe that the entire course is a waste of money. Incidentally, I believe that any course taken for the sole purpose of getting a c-card is a total waste of money.

Second, the DM candidates I have had came here specifically for the DM training. They planned this in advance and were not expecting a vacation. I make this clear to anyone who inquires about the class.

I'm not suggesting that you don't or that your students don't know what they are getting. However, I've observed people showing up in Carribean resorts who sign up for technical classes, then complain because they spend too much time studying or doing skills dives. I suspect that you've seen the same thing in pro courses.

Third, I do not use the "hypothetical" approach. I average 10 to 15 certifications a month (all private instruction). My DM candidates have the opportunity to participate in several actual courses, as well as diving almost daily assisting the DM on boat dives and leading certified divers.

I understand. However, Cancun Mark suggested that the course could be done in 10 days. While this may be true, it suggests that the instructors who are doing this are using the hypothetical approach rather than having their students intern. Even if they are not, I doubt that the candidates are working enough classes to see even the more common mistakes.

Fourth, going by what you said, you spent a total of four to five months (May - Oct), meeting once per week and interning with classes. That is actually less class time than someone doing their course here over a four week period, working on the course full-time (daily from 7:00 am until 4:00 or 5:00 pm minimum), in an actual diving environment. My DM candidates average about 250 hours of classsroom and intership time.

No, the academic classes met once per week. I worked classes a few nights each week and both days of the weekend throughout my internship.

Despite what you may think about "resort area" instructors...keep in mind that this is our full-time job, not a part-time weekend or evening job. We have more than sufficient hands-on experience and you will find some of the most qualified divemasters and instructors in the world here.

Absolutely. While I don't dive Cozumel, I do go to Grand Cayman regularly. The people at the shop I use there are absolutely top notch, and have the tech and teaching credentials to back up their skills. I'm sure that it is the same elsewhere.

While we may not be familiar with the diving in your area, I can say the same about instructors and divemasters from other areas. You would be surprised at how many divemaster and instructors have never even done an ocean dive...or who cannot dive in a current or manage their air in same, let alone teach in one.

Once again, I don't disagree. There are instructors in our area that I would not trust to walk across a parking lot. I've seen the same thing in the Carribean. In fact, last year I performed a rescue that resulted when a Carribean shop rented faulty and ill-fitting gear to a new diver, then failed to provide any type of support on the dive. I caught him as he was doing a feet first ballistic ascent to the surface from 80 fsw while holding his breath (no bubbles until I strongly encouraged him to breath). The DM from that boat was watching from a point closer to the diver than me, yet did nothing to prevent this. In fact, he did nothing except look panicked.

I ended up with a mandatory hang because I did a rapid ascent to catch the diver. I don't like doing deco in an AL80. I don't like having to give up weight because the other DM didn't have any. I don't like having to fill out reports or explain why I was observed manhandling a diver from a different boat (my DM knew what happened, the one with the other group from our boat only saw the ending).

The staff at my LDS are not only professionals, we are experienced divers. We don't take instructors who have less than 5 years of experience as an AI or a DM. Of the two instructors I work with, one is a PADI Master Instructor who has been diving the North Atlantic for 20 years and who has a few tech certs. The other holds several technical and cave certifications and is about to become a DIR-F instructor.

Alot of it is about attitude. While I hate to see anyone fail, it is comical at times to see macho instructors/divemasters with overinflated egos have a hard time diving here. The key is realizing and accepting the limitations of your training and experience, no matter what level certification you have.

Once again, we agree, except that I don't hate to see overinflated egos fail.

I have much more respect for a diver who admits that they have never dove in th ocean, or never dove in a current, etc. than one who says "I'm a divemaster and I have 500 lake dives and I don't want to be put on the boat with beginners." The ironic thing, is that I have actually had these, and the "beginners" handled themselves better in the water than this guy.

That person has no business talking like that. Unfortunately, they won't realize it until they've screwed up, and probably not even then.

I've had the same thing happen up here. We have had people from Florida who regularly dive the deeper wrecks come up here and pull an attitude when we want them to do a 60 foot check out dive. It turns out that they cannot function in the cold water and reduced vis, which makes me happy that we didn't agree to run them out to the 160 foot wreck that they wanted to visit.

I would never presume to go to an area I am unfamiliar with and boast about my credentials and how many dives I have. It really doesn't matter...what matters is how you handle yourself and recognizing limitations.

Certainly. Last year, I didn't even sign on as an AI until after the rescue. The LDS staff knew that I had some type of pro card because almost everyone on the trip did and because I was leading a group of OW divers. They asked me for my card in order to fill out an incident report.

Besides, behaving politely is much more fun. Last year, I traded gear with a local DM who wanted to compare my BP&W to his own equipment.

Later that week, he took me on some amazing dives that were not exactly on the regular tourist circuit. We had the best time.

It's ALL relative.

 

[Christi]

First, Christi, I'm not even suggesting that your course is not a good one or that it is a waste of money.



If their objective is to work with students in a warm water environment, then I would not disagree. If they just want the card, then I believe that the entire course is a waste of money. Incidentally, I believe that any course taken for the sole purpose of getting a c-card is a total waste of money.



I'm not suggesting that you don't or that your students don't know what they are getting. However, I've observed people showing up in Carribean resorts who sign up for technical classes, then complain because they spend too much time studying or doing skills dives. I suspect that you've seen the same thing in pro courses.



I understand. However, Cancun Mark suggested that the course could be done in 10 days. While this may be true, it suggests that the instructors who are doing this are using the hypothetical approach rather than having their students intern. Even if they are not, I doubt that the candidates are working enough classes to see even the more common mistakes.



No, the academic classes met once per week. I worked classes a few nights each week and both days of the weekend throughout my internship.



Absolutely. While I don't dive Cozumel, I do go to Grand Cayman regularly. The people at the shop I use there are absolutely top notch, and have the tech and teaching credentials to back up their skills. I'm sure that it is the same elsewhere.



Once again, I don't disagree. There are instructors in our area that I would not trust to walk across a parking lot. I've seen the same thing in the Carribean. In fact, last year I performed a rescue that resulted when a Carribean shop rented faulty and ill-fitting gear to a new diver, then failed to provide any type of support on the dive. I caught him as he was doing a feet first ballistic ascent to the surface from 80 fsw while holding his breath (no bubbles until I strongly encouraged him to breath). The DM from that boat was watching from a point closer to the diver than me, yet did nothing to prevent this. In fact, he did nothing except look panicked.

I ended up with a mandatory hang because I did a rapid ascent to catch the diver. I don't like doing deco in an AL80. I don't like having to give up weight because the other DM didn't have any. I don't like having to fill out reports or explain why I was observed manhandling a diver from a different boat (my DM knew what happened, the one with the other group from our boat only saw the ending).

The staff at my LDS are not only professionals, we are experienced divers. We don't take instructors who have less than 5 years of experience as an AI or a DM. Of the two instructors I work with, one is a PADI Master Instructor who has been diving the North Atlantic for 20 years and who has a few tech certs. The other holds several technical and cave certifications and is about to become a DIR-F instructor.



Once again, we agree, except that I don't hate to see overinflated egos fail.



That person has no business talking like that. Unfortunately, they won't realize it until they've screwed up, and probably not even then.

I've had the same thing happen up here. We have had people from Florida who regularly dive the deeper wrecks come up here and pull an attitude when we want them to do a 60 foot check out dive. It turns out that they cannot function in the cold water and reduced vis, which makes me happy that we didn't agree to run them out to the 160 foot wreck that they wanted to visit.



Certainly. Last year, I didn't even sign on as an AI until after the rescue. The LDS staff knew that I had some type of pro card because almost everyone on the trip did and because I was leading a group of OW divers. They asked me for my card in order to fill out an incident report.

Besides, behaving politely is much more fun. Last year, I traded gear with a local DM who wanted to compare my BP&W to his own equipment.

Later that week, he took me on some amazing dives that were not exactly on the regular tourist circuit. We had the best time.

Sounds like we agree on just about all points actually, now that you have clarified your point.

PADI would hate to hear me say this, but I often tell people that unless you plan to work as a divemaster or unless you are planning to work towards your instructor certification, then the divemaster course is a waste. If it is the knowledge you want, you can buy the books and get the knowledge without getting the card for ALOT less money.

I do however, think that every diver should work their way to rescue diver. The rescue certification is a valuable one for any diver.

I'll look you up if I ever make it up there...which is actually on my wish list of places to go. I am working on some tech certs myself, it is just taking me a long time because I have to fit it in with everything else I have to do. I'm hoping to finish them by October though!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Sounds like we agree on just about all points actually, now that you have clarified your point.

Yup.

PADI would hate to hear me say this, but I often tell people that unless you plan to work as a divemaster or unless you are planning to work towards your instructor certification, then the divemaster course is a waste. If it is the knowledge you want, you can buy the books and get the knowledge without getting the card for ALOT less money.

PADI would dislike many of the things I've got to say. In addition to your point, I'd add that people who don't want the responsibility of looking after other divers and who aren't willing to shell out the money for insurance each year should not bother with the course.

I do however, think that every diver should work their way to rescue diver. The rescue certification is a valuable one for any diver.

If I had my way, it would be required. A diver would get an OW cert that would be good for a finite period of time (say 6 months). The diver would need to complete a certain number of training dives (honor system, no dive police) and demonstrate acceptable skills in order to move on to AOW. I'd also like to see a strong recommendation that they take nitrox before AOW, but that's another issue.

Once AOW was completed, the same protocol would be in place until the diver completed Rescue and, if necessary EFR with AED. Thereafter, a diver would need to continue executing training dives, but would not need to take additional courses or demonstrate skills until and unless they signed up for another course.

I'm also not sure that I'd require AOW in order to take a Rescue course. Its seems silly to me to require that people are able to dive to 100 feet before you allow them to learn how to deal with a panicked diver on the surface, especially if the diver is someone who never intends to go beyond shallow reef diving at 60 fsw.

It seems completely idiotic to certify people to 100 fsw when they haven't been trained in self-rescue or how to address issues such as a toxing or otherwise unconscious diver.

Our preferred minimum training progression is OW, nitrox, buoyancy, AOW, Rescue and EFR. We also encourage people to show up for regularly scheduled free practice sessions and training dives and to take DIR-F early in their training.

This is not an original idea. Regardless, I believe that it is a good one.

I'll look you up if I ever make it up there...which is actually on my wish list of places to go. I am working on some tech certs myself, it is just taking me a long time because I have to fit it in with everything else I have to do. I'm hoping to finish them by October though!

Please do. We've got some of the best wreck diving in the world about 2 hours away. I'm in the middle of planning a trip out to the last u-boat sunk in WWII. Its not a particularly technical dive unless you choose to penetrate or plan on a longer bottom time, but it is one of my personal favorites.

 

[alcina]

Yup, any DM course you take should make you aware of just how hard it is to do that job. You should be asking around to make sure you get as much time working with divers and students as possible. You should ask to make sure you can have extra instruction/sessions for any theory you are not 100% on - this means being able to answer more than what it is in the little books and be able to apply that knowledge to real life. This takes far more than 10 days no matter who you are being taught by!

Yes, I agree, the standards should be changed so that is not possible, BUT it is up to the dive centre/instructor to choose not to do it that way and to provide a complete course for their students. Beware those that don't or that say the short course is good enough. I have never hired a DM who has done the short course - they just don't measure up to one who has done more intensive course such as Christi's seems to be.

people who don't want the responsibility of looking after other divers and who aren't willing to shell out the money for insurance each year should not bother with the course.

Actually, I don't agree with you here. And some people aren't sure that they want to be responsible so this is a good way to find out before forking over the commitment to instructor. There's no cost for DM after the course if you decide you don't want to utilize the cert and training.

However, you will see (on a good course,at least) so much more about diving that would normally take you years of "fun" diving - assuming you knew what you were looking for - that I believe the DM course really does make you a much better diver, educator (we all do this for non-divers & divers alike), dive buddy and conservationist. We train lots of DMs, most do use their DM at least for the first year, but for those that don't and those that decide not to later, the number one comment we get back about their training is how much better they are and how much safer they feel knowing they can handle things that come up during their dives.

I'm rambling and not doing a very good job here - sorry, have a fever (and we leave in 48 hours for Cozumel!!) Do your DM only if you are commited.