Dive Flag Requirements - South Maui

[fooks]

I appreciate the info Doug. Where we dive here in Alberta using a flag will almost get you killed. The reason being is that most boaters dont know what a dive flag is, so when they see one they tend to drive their boat over to see what it is.

This may have been nieve of me, but when we did our first shore dive in Maui last November, when we went to get tanks and weights I was suprised that the dive shop "suggested" we get a flag as well. I thought about it for a minute and then common sense kicked in and I realized why I should get it. When we did rent it I did ask if I should tow or what was standard proceedure. The person at the dive shop recomended that we just tie it off to a rock, not the reef.

I have never seen at any of the dive shops any information on the Flag laws of Maui. Again its neive of me to not think that there are laws but it would be nice to have better literature on it.
The only thing I was told was that you had to surface within 10 ft of the flag. It would be nice if the county, dive shops or whoever would provide some kind of education to those of us that are not familiar with the laws.

On Kris's note, the flags I have rented always came with a 2#, however I still tie it off to a rock. I am always sure that that rock I tie it off to is not someones home. My wife and I have fallen in love with Maui, we were engaged there, and any time we get a chance to dive in Maui we always feel privileged. Therefore we treat the reefs with the greatest respect. If there was the slightest hint that that rock could be someones home I would not think twice about leaving my flag there.

 

[KrisB]

I have never seen at any of the dive shops any information on the Flag laws of Maui. Again its neive of me to not think that there are laws but it would be nice to have better literature on it.

Maui Dreams now has it posted under the glass on the tank-island in the middle of the store.

For your reading pleasure, here it is, straight from the DLNR web site:

§13-245-9 Diver's flag.

(a) A "diver's flag" as defined by rule and measuring not less than twelve inches by twelve inches shall be required to be displayed on the surface of the water by any person or group of persons engaged in free diving or SCUBA diving.

(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a diver's flag measuring not less than twelve inches by twelve inches, shall be displayed on the highest point of the main structure of a non-motorized vessel that is sixteen feet or less in length overall in order to provide unobstructed view of the diver's flag from all directions when diving from the vessel.

(c) Notwithstanding subsection (a), in addition to the "Alpha flag" required by the United States Coast Guard, i.e., a blue flag with a white horizontal strip running from the upper left side to the lower left side, a diver's flag measuring not less than twenty inches by twenty-four inches, shall be displayed on the highest point of the main structure of any motorized or non-motorized vessel that is greater than sixteen feet in length overall in order to provide unobstructed view of the diver's flag from all directions when diving from the vessel.

(d) No person shall engage in free diving or SCUBA diving, or display a diver's flag, in a manner that shall unreasonably or unnecessarily interfere with vessels or with free and proper navigation of the waterways of the State.

(e) Except in cases of emergencies, free diving, swimming, or SCUBA diving within navigation channels shall be prohibited.

(f) All vessels shall be prohibited from approaching within one hundred feet of a displayed diver's flag or within fifty feet of a displayed diver's flag on navigable streams, except within marked navigation channels. Vessels approaching a displayed diver's flag to conduct SCUBA, snorkeling, or free diving activities within the one hundred foot or fifty foot restricted area shall be allowed to do so provided that the vessel approaches at a speed of slow-no-wake.

(g) Vessels navigating through marked navigation channels are exempt from the distance restriction described in subsection (f) but shall proceed at a speed of slow-no-wake through the navigation channel when a diver's flag is displayed adjacent to the navigation channel.

(h) The diver's flag shall be displayed only when free diving or SCUBA diving is in progress, and its display in a water area when no diving is in progress in that area shall constitute a violation of these rules.

(i) There shall be no subsurface distance restrictions from a dive flag, however, except in cases of emergencies, free divers or SCUBA divers shall be prohibited from surfacing more than one hundred feet away from the diver's flag in the ocean waters of the State and fifty feet in navigable streams.

(j) Authorized representatives of the department and life saving personnel are exempt from the distance restrictions of subsection (f) when performing functions related to their duties.

(k) Anyone violating any provision of this section shall be subject to fines and penalties as provided in sections 200-14, 200-14.5, and 200-25, HRS. [Eff 2/24/94 am July 5, 2003] (Auth: HRS §§200-2, 200-3, 200-4, 200-10, 200-14, 200-14.5, 200-24, 200-25) (Imp: HRS §§200-2, 200-3, 200-4, 200-10, 200-14, 200-14.5, 200-24, 200-25)

If you want to see the original, it is here: Amendments to HAR Chapters 13-240, 13-243, 13-245 and 13-256

The only thing I was told was that you had to surface within 10 ft of the flag. It would be nice if the county, dive shops or whoever would provide some kind of education to those of us that are not familiar with the laws.

Again, the dive shop employee in question was also not familiar, if they told you 10'. As you can see above, the rule is 100'.

Quick summary of the Hawaii Dive Flag Law:
1. you must have one.
2. you can't leave it in the water when you're not.
3. you must surface within 100' of flag.
4. boats can't go within 100' unless they're coming to dive/snorkel and approach at slow-no-wake.
5. flag must meet minimum size requirements
6. there is no subsurface distance limitation.

On Kris's note, the flags I have rented always came with a 2#, however I still tie it off to a rock. I am always sure that that rock I tie it off to is not someones home. My wife and I have fallen in love with Maui, we were engaged there, and any time we get a chance to dive in Maui we always feel privileged. Therefore we treat the reefs with the greatest respect. If there was the slightest hint that that rock could be someones home I would not think twice about leaving my flag there.

I respect that you can do that. Most people cannot (or do not), and really, the safer place for it is on the sand. You can leave it close to the rock or reef (as long as you don't have so much scope as to let the rope get tangled around stuff), but it's best to not tie it off.

Please also keep in mind that it sets a bad example -- even if you check, the next person doesn't know that you did and will say "oh, he tied it off, I think I'll tie it off here, too... to this nice chunk of cauliflower coral."

2# really is enough to keep it where you left it and as long as you have that, there's no reason to tie it.

 

[Shaka Doug]

Hey Kris...thanks for the 20 bucks! I bet someone you would chime in on this and challenge me and I was right! Way to go Buddy! I got a bonus $10 because you did it within 4 hours!!! Thanks! Good one! You're pretty predictable!

I don't care that you think I am blatantly wrong...I know I am right and most other people (except those too lazy to tow the flag) would likely agree. You're false advertising when you leave the flag in the shallows. Also, most of my competitors dive instructors like to leave the flag in the water in between dives while they are doing an SI. This is also illegal and an improper use of the flag.

So you want to skate by on a loophole? Go ahead Kris. It won't be my divers getting hit someday...it will be yours or those you've trained. If Wailea Community Association or the Parks Department or DLNR end up restricting us more because of that I will come looking for you and we will have a problem. When you are leading a dive and you do it this way, you are setting an example and others will inevitably follow that. You can't possibly tell me that in all your 500 to 999dives that you never had a diver hit the surface either unexpectedly or early and thus end up outside the 100' limit. This might not qualify as an emergency either. It's the emergency or accidental popper that gets hit Kris. With all your vast knowledge and experience I would think you would know that.

And as far as SCUBA Shack goes. I would expect that they respect a dive flag that they see on the surface no matter how fast or which direction they are going. Because if they ever fly by on top of me and I pop up and see it was them I will be in their store talking to my friend Charlie that same day. I've done it before with MDS when they narrowly missed one of my divers who was only about ten feet below the surface at Turtle Moutain Ulua. They were less than 30 feet from my flag when they whizzed by at speed. I met the captain at the Kihei Boat ramp and I was still in my wetsuit. We haven't had a problem since then.

Aren't you headed back north soon? What's taking so long?

Here's the photo I kept to remind me why I tow that pesky flag....

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's what the law says:

[SIZE=+1]§13-245-9 Diver's flag.[/SIZE]
(a) A "diver's flag" as defined by rule and measuring not less than twelve inches by twelve inches shall be required to be displayed on the surface of the water by any person or group of persons engaged in free diving or SCUBA diving.
(b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a diver's flag measuring not less than twelve inches by twelve inches, shall be displayed on the highest point of the main structure of a non-motorized vessel that is sixteen feet or less in length overall in order to provide unobstructed view of the diver's flag from all directions when diving from the vessel.
(c) Notwithstanding subsection (a), in addition to the "Alpha flag" required by the United States Coast Guard, i.e., a blue flag with a white horizontal strip running from the upper left side to the lower left side, a diver's flag measuring not less than twenty inches by twenty-four inches, shall be displayed on the highest point of the main structure of any motorized or non-motorized vessel that is greater than sixteen feet in length overall in order to provide unobstructed view of the diver's flag from all directions when diving from the vessel.
(d) No person shall engage in free diving or SCUBA diving, or display a diver's flag, in a manner that shall unreasonably or unnecessarily interfere with vessels or with free and proper navigation of the waterways of the State.
(e) Except in cases of emergencies, free diving, swimming, or SCUBA diving within navigation channels shall be prohibited.
(f) All vessels shall be prohibited from approaching within one hundred feet of a displayed diver's flag or within fifty feet of a displayed diver's flag on navigable streams, except within marked navigation channels. Vessels approaching a displayed diver's flag to conduct SCUBA, snorkeling, or free diving activities within the one hundred foot or fifty foot restricted area shall be allowed to do so provided that the vessel approaches at a speed of slow-no-wake.
(g) Vessels navigating through marked navigation channels are exempt from the distance restriction described in subsection (f) but shall proceed at a speed of slow-no-wake through the navigation channel when a diver's flag is displayed adjacent to the navigation channel.
(h) The diver's flag shall be displayed only when free diving or SCUBA diving is in progress, and its display in a water area when no diving is in progress in that area shall constitute a violation of these rules.
(i) There shall be no subsurface distance restrictions from a dive flag, however, except in cases of emergencies, free divers or SCUBA divers shall be prohibited from surfacing more than one hundred feet away from the diver's flag in the ocean waters of the State and fifty feet in navigable streams.
(j) Authorized representatives of the department and life saving personnel are exempt from the distance restrictions of subsection (f) when performing functions related to their duties.
(k) Anyone violating any provision of this section shall be subject to fines and penalties as provided in sections 200-14, 200-14.5, and 200-25, HRS. [Eff 2/24/94 am July 5, 2003] (Auth: HRS §§200-2, 200-3, 200-4, 200-10, 200-14, 200-14.5, 200-24, 200-25) (Imp: HRS §§200-2, 200-3, 200-4, 200-10, 200-14, 200-14.5, 200-24, 200-25)

So there is no "tow the flag" requirement, its a matter of judgment, function and choice.

 

[KrisB]

Doug... While you can likely tow the flag safely, I've also seen people who can't manage the line and it becomes more of a hazard than the potential risk of a boat propeller.

I can make the same argument for you towing the flag setting a bad example (because you do it well, and I'm guessing it isn't a "required skill" in your open water diver courses), leading to an underwater panic incident after one of your divers finds out it's not as easy as you make it look.

Besides that... it's now been pointed out by me and Thal that it is not illegal to park your flag like most do at Ulua. So basically, you bet someone that there'd be a reply advising you of something you knew to be false... where I come from, that sounds like a fixed wager.

And no, by the time I park the flag, I've been reasonably assured that I won't have a "popper" in my group. Sometimes this means I don't park it.

As for the threats -- I'd advise against making those publicly like that. From what I understand, it was the fisticuffs attitude between surf instructors at Cove/Kalama that got this whole CORA rules review started. Do you *REALLY* want to give them more ammunition?

 

[Shaka Doug]

I appreciate the info Doug. Where we dive here in Alberta using a flag will almost get you killed. The reason being is that most boaters dont know what a dive flag is, so when they see one they tend to drive their boat over to see what it is.

I can appreciate that many boaters do not understand what a dive flag is. That needs to be corrected and could easily be improved with signage at boat ramps, fueling stations, boat yards, etc. There are dive flags with floats that also say "Divers Below" "Stay Back 100 Feet". Maybe this is what you need.

I recently received in the mail a notice from the US Coast Guard addressing Dive Flags and a few near misses that happened not to long ago in our state. I will see if I can find that letter. It's around here somewhere.

Here on Maui where a lot of diving takes place "attracting boats" is less of a problem than where you live. Most of the boat traffic in our area involves tour operators and they DO KNOW what the flag is for.

You guys do what you want. I just want everyone to know that if they decide to dive with me, I will tow a flag and we will be safer because of it, not in more jeopardy. I like my flag, it's kind of cute....Jack (in the Box) rides on top and watches over us!

 

[adjuster-jd]

Thanks for the info folks. Doug, I appreciate the advice.
I do have to compliment the folks at Pacific Dive in Lahaina - they gave me the flag for the week at no charge. I think they had some price posted for rental of the flag but they didnt charge me a dime.
Don't know if that will be the case in Kihei but we'll see. Either way, I'll bring one along.

 

[Oside Jimc]

Here's my $0.02 from a annual visitor perspective.
While I appreciate all the good reasons a diver would want to tow a flag I feel strongly that for the average visiting diver this could be a bad idea.
First most divers that do not regularly use a towed flag could have real issues with entanglement and these could create more of a safety issue than posed by a boat in an emergency situation that brings a diver up away from his moored flag. I do not think the average boater would be any more aware of a dive flag than a SMB and I think the average boater would avoid either, and the intoxicated / clueless boater would avoid neither so shooting a SMB in my opinion would offer similar protection to a towed flag (and my 6' SMB would present a more visible target than the flag shown in your picture).

My second issue is the damage than a poorly managed tow line presents to the reef. I saw a vacationing diver last year struggling to untangle her line from the coral at 5 caves, not a pretty sight once she was done mangling the reef, If I had to weigh her safety against the safety of the reef, well the reef gets my callous vote.

So when I'm there in September I'll be anchoring my flag and using good navigation and air management to return to it before I need to surface.

 

[drmndiver99]

Wow...scuba-fight...scuba-fight. Where's Cartman when you need him:mooner::mooner:

As for another 10 cents. The flag is there for a purpose. It keeps boaters in a state of hopeful awareness. We can not help the drunken knuckleheads...same with cars. Having done many the dive with Doug, I would state that he safely tows the flag and safely guides divers in a manner that maximizes their enjoyment of the sport and minimizes their exposure to the risks.

I have tried to dive (in Maui) with flag in tow and know the hassle that it is. Being a bit of a reef hugger, I used more air trying to keep the flag line out of the reef. I was a touch uncomfortable and even annoyed. That being said, it was much less annoying and a hassle than envisioning my skull, brains and other body parts lodged into a boat prop.

So, being of at least medium intelligence, when in Maui, I elect to follow the rules. I also know they are there for a reason. I maximize my experience by hiring Doug and boat operators with similar skill, to tow the flag and bring me to the best spots around.

As I was visiting your amazing state up to two times a year and diving each trip, I now know those spots well and could easily find the caves, the better reef etc. I choose to go with a guide so that I enjoy the experience all that much more.

Many will say that it is just more money to hire a guide but let’s face the facts. We all love this experience and new from our first dive that it wasn’t as cheap as body surfing. I sometimes wonder if hang gliders and skydivers skimp on safety and security like we, the dive community do.

I recently endured the experience of diving in the Persian Gulf off the coast of Oman. I found out jut how bad scrimping on safety can get. Seven people including me left bobbing in the shipping lanes after being swept by massive current. The short cut dive masters were nowhere around to perform the rescues so a few of us did. They, when they finally surfaced they had no signaling devices as the dive shop did not pay for any safety equipment. They also did not pay to train them on how to administer oxygen or even use the equipment.

Long and short. We must look out for each other and remind each other that some short cuts for convenience can lead to unacceptable and catastrophic loss!!!

Now go beat the crap out of each other, film it and let’s see a post. Otherwise, let’s go diving.

 

[muddiver]

Here's what the law says:

[SIZE=+1]§13-245-9 Diver's flag.[/SIZE]
(a) A "diver's flag" as defined by rule and measuring not less than twelve inches by twelve inches shall be required to be displayed on the surface of the water by any person or group of persons engaged in free diving or SCUBA diving.
(h) The diver's flag shall be displayed only when free diving or SCUBA diving is in progress, and its display in a water area when no diving is in progress in that area shall constitute a violation of these rules.

Ok Kris, you state it is not illegal to park your flag. Above it states that displaying a flag when no diving by the flag owner is in progress is a violation of the law. Explaine your reasoning that it is not illegal to leave a flag in the water during your SI.

Besides that... it's now been pointed out by me and Thal that it is not illegal to park your flag like most do at Ulua. So basically, you bet someone that there'd be a reply advising you of something you knew to be false... where I come from, that sounds like a fixed wager.

Hawaii dive flag rules are very similar to California and Coast Guard rules/laws. The one exception I see is the part about boat operators not having to stay 100' from a flag in a navagation channel. Could these fast boats (i.e. SCUBA Shack) be under the impression that the reefs you are discussing are in the navagatable channel? I would think not. Usually a navagatable channel is both marked on a an official chart and deep enough for deep draft vessels to move through. Reefs at 30' to 50' do not fall in this catagory. I think some boat operators need to be schooled in proper navagation under U.S.C.G. rules and rules of the road.

That is the biggest problem around here. Everybody has a boat and none of the operators of anything under 50 tons has a clue about the laws and rules of operation. It's not the divers that need the be fined and educated, it's the rest of the boating world that needs it. You guys are lucky out there on the islands because small boat ownership is limited which reduces the number of nuckleheads on the water.