Disturbing trend in diving?

[therookie]

I think just go for it. A two person DSD, just you, her and your instructor. If your instructor is worth their salt they’ll start you off gently and work safely within her level of comfort. In easy conditions, directly supervised, taken slowly and with no one else around her, there is very little that goes wrong. And if she feels uncomfortable she can slow down or go to the surface, and if she feels really uncomfortable she can call it. Ultimately who cares about disturbing trends - this is only about you and her and what you want to get out of it.

Thinking about it more, my wife and her instructor may very well decide it is in her best interest to just be the two of them and send me off with the rest of the dive group to not add any more pressure on her. And as much as I would LOVE to be right there for her first dive, if that's what they decided, I would be 100% behind it.

The way this shop often does DSDs the instructor and "discoverer" are at the same site anyway and occasionally even in view of the rest of the group, so at least I could eyewitness a little from afar...

 

[TMHeimer]

[

Which is why in an OW training dive you can have one instructor to eight students, in up to 18m of water. In DSDs limitations are imposed to ensure safe practice: they only do one pool/CW dive (which is effectively the first pool dive of OW, if conducted to OW standards, which is not mandatory) and thus are limited to 12m in easy conditions within 2 weeks of their pool dive, 1 DM to 2 customers, and (I think) can only dive with the instructor and/or DM who conducted their pool dive. Sounds like legit safe risk management to me

Back when I was a working DM (10 years ago) the ratios for DSDs was one instructor to 4 divers maximum. One DM to two divers maximum. I don't know how one instructor can be at arms length to 4 different student divers, which was the rule. I wouldn't question the DSD's safety if it were one to one.

 

[TMHeimer]

This makes sense to me, too. From my reading it seems like the current standard for the optional open water DSD dive it must be supervised by a fully qualified instructor (as opposed to a DSD instructor which seems to be a DM with some additional training, they are not permitted to supervise an OW DSD dive, just pool and confined water?) with a maximum student to instructor ratio of 2:1. But please, if someone out there knows differently, correct me.

My own DSD experience (related in a prior post in this thread) emphasized for me one possible risk of that 2:1 ratio - I was 25 feet down, obviously not in arms reach of the instructor, and the other student was with the instructor at the surface. So what was he to do? Signal me to come up probably would have been the recommended course, but if I came up too fast or something not knowing (or remembering in the moment) any better, or out of concern for what may have been happening at the surface... there was potential for Bad Things to Happen.

So he made a judgement call, probably based on his previous interaction with me, and as it turned out all was well. But if I had also had an issue at the same time while alone at the bottom... totally different outcome all around.

As a result of my experience, in our case if my wife ever does a DSD, I will make sure she is one-on-one with the instructor.

Not sure about the exact rules for a DM since I never did a DSD, but I do recall the instructor ratio was 1:4. May have changed? But, what you describe is exactly what I was talking about. Someone bolts to (or for some reason is on) the surface and the instructor has to leave one or the other. I know the Chairman said he's never seen that happen so it is a rarity for sure, but in your case, the "arms length to all student divers" rule had to be broken. One to One ratio solves that 100%-- but maybe that's not very financially profitable?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

How about doing some snorkeling? Just face down with mask on and breathing through a snorkel does wonders.

More likely to be attacked by sharks (kidding, not kidding).

In all seriousness, I think snorkeling is a great way to start. Now if even that makes them nervous, then I'd recommend the mask/snorkel skills that are derived from what @Peter Guy taught me. Teaching Neutrally Buoyant and Trimmed -

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Very good point. Actually now that I think about it after your post my wife has specifically commented on this as being something that concerns her - water up the nose if something happens with the mask (and why she is so quick to try to clear it when snorkeling if even a relatively small amount of water gets in).

I used to be in charge of getting people through the mask R&R drill for their OW when I was a DM candidate.
That's the toughest skill for the huge majority of people. Your nose and face is uncovered but you're supposed to breathe. It goes against every human animal instinct we have to try and breatbe when your face is submerged.
For the people that had the worst time with it I had a system. First I would take them to the shallow end where we could work on it away from everyone.
I would start by having them flood their mask just partially and just breathe. Then have them flood it a little more (not covering the eyes yet) and breathe. I had a slate that said "You're breathing air with your nose underwater right now, no big deal right?". To which they agreed.
I also made it clear before we started that they could just stand up and be out of it if they absolutely had to.
Next step was to flood the mask completely even if it took a few more partial floodings to get there. Once their mask was totally flooded I had them just continue to breathe.
At that point I would pull my mask away fully flooded and let it settle back in place fully flooded.
I was doing the whole drill with them so they could follow my lead. after a time or two of that we would remove the mask and just breathe. They realized that there was no difference breathing with the mask off than a partially flooded mask. Your nose is useless underwater. I would get them to relax, which they were already because of so much gradual work towards getting the mask fully off. If they freaked out and couldn't take it any more I'd have them shut their eyes and concentrate. A lot of times this would work. If not then I'd have them shut their eyes and hold their nose until they calmed down, then they could slowly let their nose go and slowly open their eyes.
Once they acclimated and got the hang of it they did fine. It's a total mental game and gaining power to overcome instinct, that's all it is.
When you're diving normal wearing your mask there is always going to be a few drops or maybe a teaspoon or tablespoon of water in the nose pocket, enough that if your were to suck it up into your nose it would be very uncomfortable. But we breathe and don't think about it because we can see and the rest if our face is dry. But really there is no difference. It's all mental.

 

[Charles casey]

I dived with New England divers in the sixties frank sanger worked for them he had been in an accident as a kid and was missing leg and arm he was our dive master in those days great fun back then

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Thank you for that link. Maybe that's the same info that is in the link about teaching neutrally buoyant in your signature, which I have seen many times and never taken the time to click on? I especially appreciated the graphic illustrating the difference between the centre of mass and the centre of volume - that's a concept I had never really thought through before.

I found the subsequent post with the details of the mask and snorkel exercises and think they are great! Stand in chest deep water with just a snorkel and lower yourself down until your eyes are above water and your nose is submerged and just breathe through the snorkel - that's brilliant! So simple, and so easy to recover from if it doesn't go well at first... I think that exercise alone would do a lot for my wife's confidence with a snorkel. And truth be told I probably would fail that exercise myself the first couple of times I tried it - I'm thinking I try to breathe through my nose a lot more than I realize when I'm diving.

Sorry, I should have pointed you to the second blog post. But I'm glad you got something out of the first one.

So here's an offer. Come to the Greek island of Chios the first two weeks of August. I'll be there with my family for my nephew's baptism. We'll be staying at the Golden Sand Hotel in Karfas, right on the beach. I'd be happy to teach your wife right off beach. I may also teach my cousins and their wives. Chios is a less touristic island, so the Greek experience is more authentic. Plus having family there by marriage (my cousin's wife), you and your wife would have a unique experience, guaranteed. Look up Pyrgi, Mesta, and if you go, you'll become as addicted to masticha producs (especially the liquor) as me. My friend Manos who runs a shop in Pyrgi will give you great prices.

 

[therookie]

So here's an offer. Come to the Greek island of Chios the first two weeks of August.

Oh man, I tell you what, if we were casting about looking for a destination for a European vacation this summer, we would absolutely take you up on that! Gorgeous beach (judging from Google "street" view), beautiful architecture (judging from photos found online this morning), fascinating culture and history. And connections to the local community for an authentic experience and great prices at a dive shop. Checks far too many boxes but too many commitments (and already planned vacation times) to do it though...

I've never heard of this island before reading that post - likely a testament to low-quality geography education in junior and senior high school! My Spanish-English speaking brain instinctively wants to pronounce it something like "Cheetos" but without the "t" - is that even close to correct? What would be the pronunciation that would be the least "grating" on the ears of someone who lived there if we ever visited? (There I go possibly hijacking this thread again with yet another off-topic question)

 

[therookie]

I now have some questions.

A huge thank-you to everyone that responded to my questions - you have confirmed my own thinking about some things, changed my opinions about others, and given us lots to think about in areas that deserve further thought before we make decisions about my wife's participation in scuba.

There is no doubt that if she goes down this road, it will be a process that will take time. But from your responses I definitely get the impression that whatever degree of competence she decides to attempt to acquire, we'll have the support of the dive community.

And also special thanks to @Eric Sedletzky the OP (and the moderators!) for graciously allowing me to extend this thread for a few more pages yet with my questions.

 

[Allen-1]

Very good point. Actually now that I think about it after your post my wife has specifically commented on this as being something that concerns her - water up the nose if something happens with the mask (and why she is so quick to try to clear it when snorkeling if even a relatively small amount of water gets in).

I have always been very comfortable in the water, swimming on the surface, or below it. Even done a little bit of snorkeling. It came as a distinct, very unpleasant surprise that my subconscious knew that I couldn't breathe under water, no matter what my conscious mind said about regulators, etc.

While sorting through this I found out that I'm a nose-breather, which of course leads to mask leaks/floods.

Couple things that helped. My instructor lent me his spare mask which has a nose purge valve; (I promptly bought two of them when I came home from that trip). I spent literally hours sitting outside the water with mask and snorkel, trying to teach my subconscious mind that I could get plenty of air breathing through my mouth. When I got comfortable doing that, I stood in the shower with mask/snorkel.

Silly as it sounds - it helped.