Dispelling scubaboard myths (Part 1: It is the instructor not the agency)

[Diving Dubai]

I think ALL agencies could give better information of their courses. Certainly the large ones, give a brief description on their websites, but no detailed information

i.e. what you will actually do and learn. This would at lest give students better knowledge of what to expect

One example (I'm about to be proved wrong) but go look up details on the PADI Boat diver speciality, it's not easy to find the their is an optional element and what subject are taught in that.


For me, it wasn't until I started examining standards on IDC that I realised on 2 courses I'd had standards violations or poor teaching

My friend has the best story. prepare to be shocked.

OW dive 1 with his GF (who was reactivating after a long period of inactivity and herself an inexperienced diver) the Instructor put them on a boat with AoW divers he was also teaching at teh same time to combine the lessons

One of the AoW students was faffing, so the Instructor got the DM to escort my friend and his GF down to the sand.

The Dive was the Deep dive - the sand at 29m!!!! With an OW 1 student on an AL80!!!

Funnily enough the shop didn't give a log book, nor record the dive and another Instructor was the certifying instructor.

My friend told the whole story (there's munch more) to my CD and other instructors at a bar one night, everyone was silent and their chins on the floor.

But my friend hadn't a clue (until after certification that this was bad, and then until he was around other instructors exactly how many violations occurred.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Oh and QA questionnaires. Not really worth while.

If a student has passed the course, and got the cert, they're not likely to complain. I'm sure there are lots of shortcuts which get taken and never reported because the students are no wiser - Sad really

 

[northernone]

This does relate to the OP somewhat. The last 15 years of my working life depended on assessment surveys. Depending on the course that could mean the "survey" related to anything from 2 hours of instruction/assessment to 40 plus hours.

Those surveys were required in that if the number of students and assessments didn't match pretty closely questions were asked in case someone was hiding something.

IMHO those things weren't worth the paper they wasted. If you had a cranky or know it all student that just wanted to complain there was nothing you could do that would be good enough. If you were polite and helpful most would just tick the it was wonderful boxes unless they got confused and ticked all on the wrong side. That happened often with ESL participants.

Truth is most students had no idea if you ran a great course and covered the necessary points. In general all they wanted was to pass... if they passed they were happy. That just put pressure on people to accept questionable skills for fear of getting a bad review that activated the please explain or you are suspended sequence.

I actually got very few complaints. The majority of the complaints I did get were because I insisted on meeting the standards. Initially students claimed I picked on them because I asked them to come in early or work through lunch on problem areas. After I started telling them I would be willing to spend some of my lunch or unpaid time before class to help them get up to speed those complaints were rare. I could often convince the participant that I was giving them a great opportunity to have a bit of extra practice before they came back to be tested.

Those assessments papers were too easily impacted by the instructor's skill at influencing the class. We had some major renovation being done downstairs from one of our training branches. This meant JACKHAMMERS, periods with no water, plastic sheets that didn't keep all the dust from drifting upstairs. The smells of paint, hammering and clanging well you get the idea... a full on construction site. Think about teaching with a jackhammer operating below you! We were leasing the building and had no control over this and it went on for several months. The Manager came to me and asked "How come none of your students really complain about the construction? All the other Instructors are getting heaps of complaints. Some of them are attaching additional pages to write their complaints. What are you doing and we want you to talk to the other instructors about it." It was all about attitude and I had decided it would be fun to see if I could get the participants to NOT COMPLAIN while the other instructors encouraged their students to complain. My attitude of acceptance and getting the students to join me in a game of "beat the noise" did the trick. I got students to suggest new rules for the "construction game".

The only way we were able to really get a handle on how the instructors were doing was by having a few of us actually go and sit in on classes as observers. 99% of the students had no idea if the instructor was meeting standards or knew the standards well enough to know what they should be taught.

So my long winded post means. IMHO it IS the Instructor NOT the Agency but that fact makes little difference in a reality where most of the OW students have no idea if the INSTRUCTOR is complying to their agency's standards!

I enjoyed reading the Backstory to how you've made your observations from. Mirrored by my experience.

I think ALL agencies could give better information of their courses. Certainly the large ones, give a brief description on their websites, but no detailed information

i.e. what you will actually do and learn. This would at lest give students better knowledge of what to expect

One example (I'm about to be proved wrong) but go look up details on the PADI Boat diver speciality, it's not easy to find the their is an optional element and what subject are taught in that.


For me, it wasn't until I started examining standards on IDC that I realised on 2 courses I'd had standards violations or poor teaching

My friend has the best story. prepare to be shocked.

OW dive 1 with his GF (who was reactivating after a long period of inactivity and herself an inexperienced diver) the Instructor put them on a boat with AoW divers he was also teaching at teh same time to combine the lessons

One of the AoW students was faffing, so the Instructor got the DM to escort my friend and his GF down to the sand.

The Dive was the Deep dive - the sand at 29m!!!! With an OW 1 student on an AL80!!!

Funnily enough the shop didn't give a log book, nor record the dive and another Instructor was the certifying instructor.

My friend told the whole story (there's munch more) to my CD and other instructors at a bar one night, everyone was silent and their chins on the floor.

But my friend hadn't a clue (until after certification that this was bad, and then until he was around other instructors exactly how many violations occurred.

No shock whatsoever.

Another antidote. AOW night speciality for a student with 5 logged dives. 'Class' combined with a private charter for a hunter. Bullshark feeding off spear tips at 45 m. Told to log it at 22m and count it is two dives, night speciality and fish ID. Filled out the quality control survey full marks after coaching what to say by the instructor. Happy in telling the story shortly after with how good value the class was and so much better than it might have been with a more boring instructor.

Until an agency has their instructors under constant supervision, implements professional level teachers training and screening and perhaps uses secret shopper style dive checks it's going to be up to the teaching ability, work ethic and skill of the individual instructor in any agency.

The list could go on. At the end of the day it's largely the quality of the instructor. And at the beginning of the day it is also largely the quality of the instructor which determines the quality of instruction.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[The Chairman]

My first dive after OW was an AOW deep dive. We went to 120 ft in a cave without a light in Blue Spring (Orange City, Fl). I couldn't see a thing from 80 ft on down. Yes, my instructor was a cave diver. No, I didn't know any better.

 

[Colliam7]

I fully agree that all agencies can do a better job of communicating what their courses involve - not the 'standards' necessarily, but what actually takes place, what the student is expected to do and learn, etc.

As for QA surveys, I have, perhaps, a slightly different perspective. I do not believe that any survey process is perfect, either. But, such a process does represent a good faith attempt to monitor training activities, within the realm of reason and budget. More important, the student does not need to 'know any better', certainly does not need to 'complain', in order to complete a survey. At least with regard to what i have seen in the PADI surveys, the questions the student is asked to answer are factual, and worded in such a way as to not indicate what answer is expected, or 'correct' - many are amenable to 'Yes' or 'No' responses.

 

[TMHeimer]

The PADI surveys are sent out by PADI, not the shops. Many shops also survey their customers, but that is different.

Thanks. Then they were shop surveys I saw. Are the PADI surveys sent to people randomly? I've never gotten one after taking a course.

 

[Schwob]

By "shortchanged," I clearly referred to skipped standards. I clearly pointed out that one problem is that they usually don't know if they have been shortchanged, as was the case with me. I could have known that if I had just looked at my log book more carefully and seen that I was signed off for skills I had not done. I said that in the current logbook, the OW skills are impossible to miss--the student is in fact supposed to check them off when they are done. Not all of the pool skills are listed, but many of them are. Again, any student looking at the logbook and seeing that the 10 minute surface float was checked off when they did not in fact do it would realize it.

How would they know to whom they should report it? I didn't mention this, because I thought the detective work required would not be extensive. If it is a PADI class, after careful consideration, they might report it to PADi, which is easily done by accessing the web site. When I was still a pretty much beginning diver, I went to dive in Fiji. While there, I saw a student get certified by PADI in a way that was obviously a standards violation even to someone like me who did not really know what the standards were. I looked up the PADI address and sent them a letter describing what I had seen. I got a response soon after saying that they had investigated the case and would be dealing with that instructor. They did not tell me what they did, but I would expect that the instructor was expelled--they have expelled others for less. I did not realize it then, but I could have gone to the web site after the next quarter and seen what was done--their major disciplinary actions are posted publically.

I don't think I was a genius for figuring out that a complaint about PADI should go to PADI, and it did take stellar detective work to learn their address. I think those skills are within the capabilities of many people.

Well, you are right in your reply there and maybe I even deserved the tone. Not entirely sure on the latter.
I certainly should not extrapolate from my limited experiences upon others because I clearly do not have enough experience for that sort of thing. So I agree, in principle students that feel shortchanged should report..., but ...

For me, it mostly looks this way:
This is a hobby to me. Good time. I am not out to get somebody or change the world of PADI or whoever, nor would I want to rat on a poor underpaid and underappreciated instructor especially not when I suspect that maybe the real culprit might be the shop... and if I were sure of the latter, how would I report that to whom ... and what would that then do? And how does that then not end in a strained or broken relationship with the instructor or the shop or all?

I leave it at that for the thread, but send you a PM with a question on something where I think I should maybe have officially complained ... or not... - curious on your opinion.

 

[RayfromTX]

It's a tough call.

no pun intended

 

[TMHeimer]

It's true there could be more info. on course content on agency websites. Sometimes a shop's website may be a bit more detailed. Perhaps the thinking is for you to pay your $ and you'll get the details. Kind of like when you google a newspaper and only get a snap shot of news.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

For me, it mostly looks this way:
This is a hobby to me. Good time. I am not out to get somebody or change the world of PADI or whoever, nor would I want to rat on a poor underpaid and underappreciated instructor especially not when I suspect that maybe the real culprit might be the shop... and if I were sure of the latter, how would I report that to whom ... and what would that then do? And how does that then not end in a strained or broken relationship with the instructor or the shop or all?
.

Please understand this is not directed at you personally as the attitude you express here is incredibly common. That is exactly what makes creating effective surveys so difficult. Unfortunately most people signing up for an OW course have no idea how important their choice of where they take the course is. To them it is just a hobby. They are thinking about seeing the pretty fishes, the planned holiday, bragging rights or whatever motivated them to take the course. They are not seriously thinking that they are making a choice to do something that could result in their death. Scuba is "sold" as a "safe activity" that virtually anyone can do....

For many years I was one of the primary mentors of trainers around the state for a Nationally Registered Training Agency. The parent organization is internationally known so I will not use the name here. I also wrote training programs and assessment papers some of which were used by the military Nationally.

I was responsible for the initial training and accreditation of trainers. I was also involved in re-accreditation, mentoring and quality control. We had to maintain a set of national standards to pass our yearly audits or we would lose our National Training Agency status which clearly would be devastating to the Organization, employees and students who carried our Certificates to maintain their employment.

We had trainers who played the "sympathy card". The students heard their stories about being underpaid, over worked, underappreciated, and abused. Often by the end of the course the students felt like they needed to "Champion" the poor unfortunate. Some students would make comments that hinted at what was going on but very few commented on it being annoying. Some of these trainers "coached" participants on how to fill in the survey.

Quality control was an ongoing battle. We had to use multiple methods. We seldom used "Secret Shoppers". Often the email advising everyone that the Secret Shopper process was being reactivated scared some trainers enough to self correct.

In dealing with the trainers I found most wanted to do a good job and believed they were doing so. In spite of the best of intentions trainers failed to meet the standards because they:
1) didn't understand them
2) cut corners over time gradually forgetting to include critical element(s)
3) disagreed with the standard and felt their approach/knowledge/opinion was more appropriate

@Colliam7 I agree the QA surveys are vital to show good faith attempts to monitor the training and assessment processes. I haven't seen the ones the Dive industry uses so I have no idea how effective they would be. I have first hand experience on how difficult it can be to write them. Whatever is done has to be fair, relevant, reliable and affordable. At least a wel done one can hopefully red flag a problem before it turns into a disaster. Properly prepared Secret Shoppers are expensive. Sending Mentors out to sit in on classes is expensive and likely to result in altered behavior while they are present.

I do think the Agency is important in setting standards and trying to ensure they are met. No matter how much effort the Agency puts into QA it will always come down to the quality and dedication of the Instructor during the course. IMHO it doesn't make much difference if the student got the worst instructor from the best agency or the best instructor from the worst agency.