DIR wars...Is it the name?

[Keysdrifter454]

I say this because my cousin, a world class marine biologist had never heard of DIR??

you can read about her last exploration here: http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/04deepscope/welcome.html


She has been diving since the early 70's, and travels is some seriously heavy circles in her field. EVERYONE she works with dives, even if much of her diving is deep via a submersible like the Johnson Sea Link she still dives for recreation on a regular basis.

Maybe DIR is not the movement that so many seem to believe it is.....

Ron

I'm having a little difficulty with your leap of logic here.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

It appears that this thread has proven that if you can't argue the facts you resort to the principles. If you can't argue the principles you call the other guy names.


With that being said I have taken the better part of an hour and a bit to read these posts. Quite entertaining I must say. However the censorship guidelines on the board as governed by the TOS does not prevent anyone from partaking in a heated debate. The TOS are designed to provide for you a guideline as to how a debate is to be conducted. If an open or public forum degrades in it's context or tone then it is usually not appreciated by the viewing audience. If continued unchecked such a debate can reform into a mob mentality of expression, thus the purpose of moderators. The balance of which can be delicate, one must chose their words and tone carefully. While it may be acceptable to call out someone it is not acceptable to be disrespectful of their point of view. Argue the facts, argue the principle, but do not argue the personality. Oh how easy this happens

Well..... as someone who always seems to bring out the best in moderators, I have to point out that this thread has 410 posts, while the average thread has 21 (first two pages, this thread backed out).

As far as "usually not appreciated by the viewing audience",

It's like Jerry Springer.

No one admits to watching it, but the show is somehow immensely successful.

I know (as you may not) that I'm doing a world class job of holding my tounge and being polite, relatively on-topic, and enlightening, but it is a chore.

Moderators, OTOH, have no constraint to do this.

NWGD/B is a little ticked at Dweeb, apparently not for the first time, and he should either remove himself from the thread, or tap an arbitrator to make a decision, which he should abide by.

"Quite entertaining I must say" is what puts butts in the seats.

 

[Tom R]

Got to love the DIR/AntiDIR fight it is everywhere, here in Ontario it is taken to new hieghts and it is taking it's toll. Matter of fact is a marketing tool for the anti dir crowd yet when you go in to their stores they are sell quazi-DIR courses, sorta dir gear and kind of DIR ideas but they insist they are not DIR. It's a name, and the diving goes back to basic rules here, dive with a buddy, dive safely, improve your skills. How come everyone has a problem with it?

 

[Kim]

I'm having a little difficulty with your leap of logic here.

It takes a little intelligence - I'm sure you could get it!

 

[tachyon]

With all due respect, virtually every objection you have listed has absolutely nothing to do with DIR itself, but the personalities and more specifically the emotions, involved.

If you've been diving Chattanooga (ChooChoo divers) a while, no doubt you and I have shared water in Loc Low Minn many times together.

If you ever passed a guy by himself skip breathing while reading a paperback (3hrs10m my personal best with an al80 at 3K) on the 20' platform, that would be me (not very DIR, especially when you tend to nap).

There's a lot of different ways to put this, but, your main problem with DIR is that you're offended by their prejudgment and ostricism of you as a diver.

But why would you care?

You've hit the nail on the head. I answered the original question and explained why not only the name, but the broadcast perception were something that put me off. If the purpose of this thread changed from the original question, then my answers aren't on-topic.

As to Loc Low Minn, I haven't been there yet. Over 80% of my dives have been in the creeks and rivers around here tending hookah and dredge lines for other divers doing recovery work and being the 'guy on tanks' just in case something untoward happened. The rest of my dives have been at Martha's Quarry, Pennecamp, Bimini, NC/SC Coast and the Florida Springs.

This was the original post in this thread:

I remember when I first heard about DIR, just over a year ago. As a concise summary was patiently explained to me, I turned incredulous and resistant as I found the it stood for "Doing it right".

I remember feeling an immediate alienation and even resistance, because the name suggested to me that you are either doing it THIS way, or you are doing it wrong. To me it felt like right from the start, the name sets up a conflict, since it suggests there is only DIR or DIW.

I wonder if DIR would more peacefully received by a wider audence if it were named something less provoking...or maybe the provocation is part of the appeal...

I make the assumption that since so many DIR divers and proponents are defending it vigorously, that it's success and growth are important to them. I would imagine that they would want to know what stands in the way of that success and growth. IMO, that is the perception that they have left with people who are avid divers that don't fit their ideal profile.

I will point out that several DIR proponents in this thread sound like divers that I'd have a blast diving with, and it also sounds like they don't take themselves so seriously that they would exercise the prejudice that is institutionalized by the DIR doctrine in an Open Water diving situation.

In truth, I've never dove with someone I knew was DIR. If I have, they didn't make a big deal out of their doctrine. Most divers are friendly, helpful and courteous; no matter who they're dealing with. I've never had a problem finding dive buddies even when I go to the dive site solo.

Of course, this is from the second page:

People say, Ive done X # of dives and havent had any problems or someother lame excuse, thats fine. I dont care, I will dive w/ them. BUT I wont do any dive w/ them and even on easy dives its alot more enjoyable to dive w/ a DIR minded buddy.

This quote is somewhat difficult to understand, but I *THINK* WaterDawg is saying they'll dive with anyone, but not on technical dives. The problem is that he calls safely diving for X dives a 'lame excuse' for not being DIR. There are several other examples of this attitude in this thread, and this thread is tame compared to some of the DIR threads I've read.

The following statement is non-confrontational and expresses the author's view that DIR provides what they consider to be superior skills without being offensive:

I may not have them show me cert cards, but I do as their experience and training. You should do that with a new buddy even if you aren't DIR.

This one is by the same author. It's very exclusive and since it specifies that I, personally, am an unsafe diver, and is offensive to me:

How do you figure this? Just becuz you are not DIR does not mean that you are a stroke or unsafe. Its not an either you are DIR or you area stroke type situation. We don't dive with unsafe divers, whether it they are not physically fit, they have bad gear configuration, they have an unsafe mentality or outlook, poor planning, or lack the training for the dive they are about to do. This would be unsafe in my mind, and so I do not dive with divers that i see possess this qualities. You can be a safe diver and not be DIR.

And this doesn't seem to be the exception of self-professed DIR divers, but closer to the rule. In fact, according to later posts, it IS the rule.

So, the short answer is yes. My opinion of DIR is a reaction to the initial arrogance of the name as well as the prejudice by it's practicioners that I'm unsafe *under any circumstances* because I don't meet the parameters of their system.

And finally,

But why would you care?

Only because jagfish asked a question about something I was curious about, I read the thread, felt excluded by the rhetoric of the DIR types and added my opinion.

tachyon

 

[detroit diver]

Ignoring the fortan gibberish at the beginning, I think you're completely misstating an important part of what DIR is about and how it evolves.

Diving with someone who has superior skills should be an opportunity to learn and improve on your own skills. Once you've mastered those skills, you should pass them on to people whose skills aren't as good as your own. That is the obligation of the student in martial arts and academe. I see it as an unstated rule in the diving industry as well and consider that a good thing.

I see a disconnect in this cycle with DIR's philosophy if not it's practice. If you limit your diving partners to those who are on some 'approved' list, you limit the skills you can learn to those posessed by that group, especially if any skill learned or demonstrated is 'dangerous' if it isn't already in your 'Bible'.

What DIR says is: Show us a better way to do something, and if tested and it works better than what is being done, it will be adopted. The DIR instructors are not living in a vacuum. Their students are coming from all walks of life, diving backgrounds, and life experiences. If there was something found that could change the way that we dive for the better, it would be adopted with open arms.

In addition, DIR does not call for "their divers to avoid diving with non-DIR divers". It say to not dive with anyone that is unsafe. The only ones who use the word "stroke" here are non-DIR people.

Your AIR2 and lack of spring straps are a different story....

No, the name implies that DIR *IS* the right way. DIR = TRUE

It is implied that if you disagree with DIR then you *are not* seeking the right way. NOT DIR = FALSE

I and many others do not accept that NOT DIR = FALSE

By the laws of logic, if DIR = TRUE than anything which is NOT DIR = FALSE. Since this is not true, this is a situation where pure logic can not be applied as simply as you imply.

DIR contains many good ideas. Many of those ideas can be found elsewhere. Some DIR procedures are demonstrably NOT the right way to do things in all situations. Sometimes, they're not even the right way to do things in technical / cave diving. Whenever I've seen them pointed out, some DIR disciples assault not the issue, but the credibility of those contesting the procedures... and the controversy continues. Of course, DIR isn't alone in this. It's just the topic of this conversation.

Does the name DIR put people off? I believe it does. Do their requirements and calling for their divers to avoid diving with non-DIR divers alienate other people in the sport and industry? Yes. Am I a candidate for DIR? No. I'm overweight by a large margin. That makes me a 'stroke' in any DIR diver's book. You know what? I don't really care. I dive. I enjoy diving. I dive within my limitations. If someone won't dive with me because I'm overweight, use a dive computer, use a combination power inflator-emergency second stage, and don't wear springs on my feet then I'll find someone else who will.

There have been DIR proponents who have stated explicitly in this thread that not only am I not acceptable to take their training, but that I'm not acceptable as a dive buddy, despite never having met me and having no idea of my diving skill. They can magically tell that I'm not 'worthy' because of any of a number of protocols on equipment, training and fitness.

Diving with someone who has superior skills should be an opportunity to learn and improve on your own skills. Once you've mastered those skills, you should pass them on to people whose skills aren't as good as your own. That is the obligation of the student in martial arts and academe. I see it as an unstated rule in the diving industry as well and consider that a good thing.

I see a disconnect in this cycle with DIR's philosophy if not it's practice. If you limit your diving partners to those who are on some 'approved' list, you limit the skills you can learn to those posessed by that group, especially if any skill learned or demonstrated is 'dangerous' if it isn't already in your 'Bible'.

tachyon

 

[Kim]

Ignoring the fortan gibberish at the beginning, I think you're completely misstating an important part of what DIR is about and how it evolves.

This statement describes part of the problem. This thread is NOT about what DIR is or how it evolves etc. It was a simple question about wether the name itself creates problems. Obviously it does - or we wouldn't have a thread this long by now. The answer to the original question therefore is simple - Yes, it's the name!!!
Wether DIR divers care (or should care) about that is the topic of a different thread - the problem is that some people don't see it like that and as soon as the name (DIR) is mentioned in a thread title in an open forum we end up with the whole argument again - another 400+ posts arguing the same things.

 

[detroit diver]

This statement describes part of the problem. This thread is NOT about what DIR is or how it evolves etc. It was a simple question about wether the name itself creates problems. Obviously it does - or we wouldn't have a thread this long by now. The answer to the original question therefore is simple - Yes, it's the name!!!
Wether DIR divers care (or should care) about that is the topic of a different thread - the problem is that some people don't see it like that and as soon as the name (DIR) is mentioned in a thread title in an open forum we end up with the whole argument again - another 400+ posts arguing the same things.

That statement was a response to the post that was quoted. I didn't see you making any judgements when it was originally posted.

As for the 400 posts-you can't complain about it and be a contributor also, can you?

 

[cornfed]

This statement describes part of the problem. This thread is NOT about what DIR is or how it evolves etc. It was a simple question about wether the name itself creates problems. Obviously it does - or we wouldn't have a thread this long by now. The answer to the original question therefore is simple - Yes, it's the name!!!

Are you using the wrong equipment if it wasn't made by Dive Rite? Is PADI really the way the world learns to dive? Does NAUI only have information for serious divers? Scubapro's slogan implies they make the best equipment, so are my Apeks regulators inferior? Is TDI/SDI really leading the dive industry into the 21st century? Is ANDI really the premier educational agency for advanced training? Is Rodales really the magazine that diver's trust?

The problem is not the name it is the group of people that take one look at it and get offended.

If you don't like the term don't use it.

 

[Jason B]

Are you using the wrong equipment if it wasn't made by Dive Rite? Is PADI really the way the world learns to dive? Does NAUI only have information for serious divers? Scubapro's slogan implies they make the best equipment, so are my Apeks regulators inferior? Is TDI/SDI really leading the dive industry into the 21st century? Is ANDI really the premier educational agency for advanced training? Is Rodales really the magazine that diver's trust?

good point!