DIR view of Sidemounting

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Vayu:
What can motivate a statement such as this? I really have to disagree and refuse to see DIR diving as something that needs to be preached.

When you read that, did you hear a big whooshing sound as it went over your head?

Weither or not sidemounting is worth the risk is a subjective value judgement. The point of the religion analogy is that it is subjective. DIR divers are typically a crowd of people who tend to the conclusion that there's a lot of cave out there which doesn't need sidemount.

This would imply faith and thinking divers generally don't take things on faith alone.

There is absolutely no objective way to argue about risk. Plenty of the people I work with think I'm freaking nuts to even be recreational diving. Arguing with them is as pointless as arguing about religion. You have to have a certain amount of faith about the risk that you are willing to accept. Some people are more risk averse, some are less. DIR divers tend to be the most risk averse of the aggressive divers.

There has been and will continue to be specialized types of diving that happen on the exploration end of things. You won't find me doing any of it. It requires an extreme personality to be doing true exploring and all divers doing it take extreme measures. I believe the original poster wants to find the best method of doing it and he thinks some DIR affiliated divers have that knowledge.

Which I don't really understand. I mean you find the occasional DIR type who has gone on to other stuff (e.g. chickdiver and her heretical megalodon CCR), but generally its the wrong crowd to go to if you want those answer.

Maybe they do or maybe they don't. In either case I believe it is a good thing to ask a question and a bad thing to tell divers with questions that they need to go someplace else. Our goal in this forum is to help people become safer divers and I believe a little respect is in order.

No, this is the DIR forum.

And I was being completely respectful, you just chose to completely misinterpret it.
 
I don't think religion should enter into this discussion. Seriously man you are comparing sidemount divers to the Islamic faith and DIR diving to Catholicism. Which means you are talking nonsense and not giving dive related answers. Above all this forum is a dive forum and I expect to see some coherent answers.
 
No, I think Lamont's analogy is a good one.

He's just saying that one set of people hold beliefs and attitudes that are simply different from another group, and those beliefs or attitudes shape their choices.

One group says, "I want to go in that passageway, and I can't get doubles in there, so I'll sidemount." The other group says, "I don't want to sidemount, so I'll explore passage I can do with doubles." Asking the second group how to sidemount isn't going to get you much information, because they essentially begin by ruling it out as a possibility.

I'm in no position to tell anybody whether DIR sidemounts or if so, how they would do it. I do know enough to say that a DIR team wouldn't operate sidemount unless there was a compelling need to explore a passage that required it. And that's already been said.
 
Vayu:
I don't think religion should enter into this discussion. Seriously man you are comparing sidemount divers to the Islamic faith and DIR diving to Catholicism. Which means you are talking nonsense and not giving dive related answers. Above all this forum is a dive forum and I expect to see some coherent answers.

RTodd gave you a very coherent answer: sidemount is more dangerous and there's lots of unexplored cave that doesn't require it.

JimC also gave you a very coherent answer: "there is more to the cave diving world than a handful of caves you can drive a truck down."

Neither of those answers are objectively right or objective wrong ways of framing the debate. The reward of crawling down a tiny narrow hole in the ground vs the risk inherent in using sidemount is fundamentally subjective. And if you don't see why RTodd thinks everyone who crawls down a narrow hole with a sidemount is ****ing nuts you are never going to convince him of it, and he's never going to convince you of his viewpoint. Its precisely as productive as arguing Catholicism vs. Islam. You can't hope to sit down and rationally solve the worlds problem and come to an answer that everyone agrees upon. At some point people's viewpoints fundamentally differ.
 
Vayu:
I don't think religion should enter into this discussion. Seriously man you are comparing sidemount divers to the Islamic faith and DIR diving to Catholicism. Which means you are talking nonsense and not giving dive related answers. Above all this forum is a dive forum and I expect to see some coherent answers.

Bloody hell, man! There wasn't any discussion of religion. Are we really so sensitive that the mere mention of the word Islam freaks people out? The point was incredibly simple. You wouldn't ask a priest for information about islam BECAUSE IT'S THE WRONG PERSON TO ASK. He could have just as easily said that you wouldn't ask a car mechanic about a skin condition or a psychologist about Kant, Descartes, or Nietzsche.
 
Vayu:
What can motivate a statement such as this? I really have to disagree and refuse to see DIR diving as something that needs to be preached. This would imply faith and thinking divers generally don't take things on faith alone. There has been and will continue to be specialized types of diving that happen on the exploration end of things. You won't find me doing any of it. It requires an extreme personality to be doing true exploring and all divers doing it take extreme measures. I believe the original poster wants to find the best method of doing it and he thinks some DIR affiliated divers have that knowledge. Maybe they do or maybe they don't. In either case I believe it is a good thing to ask a question and a bad thing to tell divers with questions that they need to go someplace else. Our goal in this forum is to help people become safer divers and I believe a little respect is in order.

I had abandoned this thread because well, you can't teach pigs to sign. But, this is the second example of political correctness gone completely awry in this thread. It was just an analogy, and, a rather good one. Get over it. It was rather good because it was accurate in a twisted sort of way. I dive with three of the five GUE cave instructors (the last word in GUE DIR). There are only five folks, this is a very small part of the diving community. Not take classes from them, load up tanks and go do fun dives. So, when I gave their answer on sidemount it really was the complete position. If you don't like the answer, head over to the hogarthian section and ask. Of course, the current "hogarthian" diving has about as much in common with DIR as Muslims do with Catholics. They both involve diving, but that is about where the similarity stops.

Now, do I think I would be taking abnormal risks doing a sidemount dive in a stable system if I was only swimming a single stage. Not really. But, the exploring/ fun dives I do tend to be more than that. So, for dives at the level I am discussing, yes, it is too much unnecessary risk. For less experienced cave divers I would consider even basic sidemount dives an unnecessary risk. And, if it is just a fun cave dive, caves where you can get the much better thought out backmount system will always be my preference. Yes there are some squirrly caves around the world that require sidemount. Unfortunately, most of the people that live near these caves don't have the experience to dive them in what I would consider a safe manner.

I think it was Lamont that summed it up really well, the most risk adverse of the more agressive divers. There was a recent incident where the diver is doing just fine thanks to the risk parania of his teammates. A similar incident happened to the personal preference crowd a few years ago and the body count went up.

DIR can teach you how to do insane dives with minimum risk if you want to put a great deal of time and money into learning how. Otherwise, there are lots of shortcuts. Feel free to take them. Alternatively, keep the dives really simple like the majority of the diving public does. Those of us that actually understand DIR (it isn't about the gear) prefer the long route even if it is just to move the risk decimal one more place on the simple dives.
 
RTodd:
Of course, the current "hogarthian" diving has about as much in common with DIR as Muslims do with Catholics. They both involve diving, but that is about where the similarity stops.
A bit off topic
:D

As a matter of fact Islam and Catholicism have more in common than most think. Not to make this off topic too long it's worth remembering - they believe in one, the same God. And Jesus is a prophet for Muslims. They also believe in Jesus' ascension.
There is more in common but it's time to:

End off topic

RTodd:
For sidemount, the need is almost non-existant. (...) It just isn't necessary. There is so much cave in Mexico to explore that you can do in backmount that they won't get to it all in their lifetimes.
(...)
But, there just isn't a good DIR answer for sidemount right now because the need doesn't really exist and no one has come up with a truly good system yet. The answer to pretty much anyone who asks how to DIR sidemount is, you don't need to do it.
Well, you are guys welcome to Europe for some cave diving in the mountains. Maybe this will show you that yes - there is a need for sidemounting. Please read the post I have linked and tell me how to dive in such conditions in a standard DIR cave set up?

There are other places in the world but Florida and Mexico. And there are caves there. Not that I dive in them (not that qualified) but have friends who do. And for they tell me some of them are even more beautiful than yours.

Mania
 
Mike Edmonston:
All Caves are beautiful

This one I dove last year in sidemount.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVFKfFBZvPk

Cheers

Mike

Nice video and yes, the cave was beautiful. I only saw one restriction in the video that would have cut it close for backmount though. Everything else was wide open and seemed easily doable in backmount. Am I mistaken?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom