DIR view of Sidemounting

[Soggy]

Sorry, but I think it is a huge mistake to take someone into the water who is unable to propel themselves with their own power. I know people will disagree, but SCUBA is not a sport for those with certain physical handicaps, just like you wouldn't suggest that someone with no legs go running. Yes, I realize he had a scooter, but scooters fail and if it does, that guy is *totally* at the mercy of his buddy.

I respect the choice of those individuals to undertake such an endeavor, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea or safe, and it most certainly isn't DIR. One diver is solo diving and baby sitting since the other is incapable of managing many of their own problems and certainly could not rescue their buddy!

Flame away...

As for sidemount, contrary to what RTodd says there are caves in places other than Florida and Mexico that require it if you wish to cave dive, so it's not just laziness. I do not personally have any interest in wiggling my way through a 6" crawl space on the surface and especially do not want to do it underwater, so this is a non issue for me. However, some do....I don't know if it is DIR or not, but it is a reality.

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Regardless, sidemount is a poor choice for a DIR diver that doesn't actually need it.

I agree with you 100%.

It is not the right tool for every job. My original post was to discuss what configurations would be the most DIR compliant if our only choice was to use sidemount for that specific dive. In response, I have been told that we NEVER need sidemount, that it's an excuse, that I'm using it because I don't have any skills, that I have an attitude and that I'm a STROKE!

Nice way to start a topic!

I dive regularely with DIR divers. I know that their skills are beyond reproach, and that they won't leave me in a tunnel to follow a blind cave fish. They are some of the nicer and thoughtful people that I have dove with.

In fact I enrolled my wife, son, and dive partner in an upcoming Fundies class,because I believe in the methodology of the system. Should I tell them to cancel because we are just "STROKES" that can't seem to do anything right??

Having said that, it seems that this board has ATTITUDE divers, which are more interested on slamming another diver, then to hold an intelligent discussion.

My original post was very simple, "If you had to use a sidemount rig, what configuration do you feel would be the most DIR appropriate". That's all.

By being pompous and arrogant, certain divers are not helping anyone.

Mike

 

[JeffG]

I agree with you 100%.

It is not the right tool for every job. My original post was to discuss what configurations would be the most DIR compliant if our only choice was to use sidemount for that specific dive. In response, I have been told that we NEVER need sidemount, that it's an excuse, that I'm using it because I don't have any skills, that I have an attitude and that I'm a STROKE!

Nice way to start a topic!

I dive regularely with DIR divers. I know that their skills are beyond reproach, and that they won't leave me in a tunnel to follow a blind cave fish. They are some of the nicer and thoughtful people that I have dove with.

In fact I enrolled my wife, son, and dive partner in an upcoming Fundies class,because I believe in the methodology of the system. Should I tell them to cancel because we are just "STROKES" that can't seem to do anything right??

Having said that, it seems that this board has ATTITUDE divers, which are more interested on slamming another diver, then to hold an intelligent discussion.

My original post was very simple, "If you had to use a sidemount rig, what configuration do you feel would be the most DIR appropriate". That's all.

By being pompous and arrogant, certain divers are not helping anyone.

Mike

interesting summation of the thread.

 

[RTodd]

There's a physical? A swim test, and breathhold swim are all I'm aware of. There's zero data on DCS in parapalegics so that's a pretty sh&tty reason to exclude them. If their teams are happy with their capabilities rather than their handicaps that's all that really matters. I know a variety T1 dives well suited for the handicapped (e.g. no current, straight up, straight down profile). And I imagine there are certain caves which are also plausible. Are they the deepest, darkest exploration dives, no. Are they by default limited to recreational dives, I don't think so. Here's a good example of someone who has much potential.

http://www.direxplorers.com/general-diving-forum/1474-paraplegic-dir-diver.html#post14198

Regardless, sidemount is a poor choice for a DIR diver that doesn't actually need it.

Every agency has a yes no medical questionaire. If you tick a box yes, you get a physical. Being a para will get you a phsyical. Injury sites are more prone to DCS. I have plenty of personal experience with this. But, the bigger issue is if you are paralyzed you won't know if your legs get whacked or if you take a type II hit that only manfests itself below the waist (I don't know if that could happen or not). An acceptable risk for many on a conservative open water profile. A stupid risk for anything else. Also, even a traithalon competing para is in some way more dependent on their buddy and is less able to assist their budy. (You move slower with your arms than legs no matter how strong they are.) This is a complete violation of the teamwork philosophy of DIR and DIR isn't suitable for accomodating it beyond the open water level.

If they are qualified to dive, a back mount tank is what should be used and is easily done. As far as cave diving goes. The answer is no. I am fortunate that my regular teammates are some of the best in the world. I have more scooter dives than most other cave divers have cave dives. Sure, if I ever ended up in a chair I could probably talk them into taking me on some easy scooter dives in tame caves. But, doing that forces them into assisting me if anything goes wrong. And, if it went really wrong, forcing them to risk their own lives to stay with the gimp swimming at 1/4 speed. Placing teammates in that position just isn't in line with the DIR philosophy.

If you want to go do 200' dives with your sidemount wearing para friends, go for it. But, it isn't DIR.

 

[rjack321]

Every agency has a yes no medical questionaire. If you tick a box yes, you get a physical. Being a para will get you a phsyical. Injury sites are more prone to DCS. I have plenty of personal experience with this. But, the bigger issue is if you are paralyzed you won't know if your legs get whacked or if you take a type II hit that only manfests itself below the waist (I don't know if that could happen or not). An acceptable risk for many on a conservative open water profile. A stupid risk for anything else. Also, even a traithalon competing para is in some way more dependent on their buddy and is less able to assist their budy. (You move slower with your arms than legs no matter how strong they are.) This is a complete violation of the teamwork philosophy of DIR and DIR isn't suitable for accomodating it beyond the open water level.

If they are qualified to dive, a back mount tank is what should be used and is easily done. As far as cave diving goes. The answer is no. I am fortunate that my regular teammates are some of the best in the world. I have more scooter dives than most other cave divers have cave dives. Sure, if I ever ended up in a chair I could probably talk them into taking me on some easy scooter dives in tame caves. But, doing that forces them into assisting me if anything goes wrong. And, if it went really wrong, forcing them to risk their own lives to stay with the gimp swimming at 1/4 speed. Placing teammates in that position just isn't in line with the DIR philosophy.

If you want to go do 200' dives with your sidemount wearing para friends, go for it. But, it isn't DIR.

We don't know how alot of physical limitations are affected by hyperbaric conditions. Cancer would be a good one. Besides who are you to tell a para-person that DCS risks to their non-functional legs are excessive? I'm not disabled but I suspect that would be viewed as seriously bigoted by a para.

If a diver has a limitation that restricts their swimming to 1/4 speed there's nothing DIW about that. You don't do tech dives with current (easy enough in a lake). And you limit your low flow cave penetrations to 1/4 the distance.

I would be willing to do this for a less than able-bodied buddy. A 3rd teammate might be a good idea, as well as various types of surface support depending on the exact issues. But just being a really slow swimmer is not an immediate disqualification IMO. They would need an individual evaluation, e.g can they rescue an unconcious diver? something you and Soggy seem unwilling to do. Too bad.

Using a sidemount rig would be too much

 

[SparticleBrane]

Bypassing the handicapped argument...

I'm with Jeff on this one. Do what makes you happy. If you want to slither through tiny cave holes, go for it (you'll never find me there, though!!)

I know that plenty of you said that there's no reason to dive sidemount in open water--sure there is. If you need sidemount to get through a particularly small restriction then you need to be comfortable using sidemount, and that means practicing with the rig. I sure as hell wouldn't be taking a brand new setup into an environment like that without lots of open water practice beforehand.

 

[JimC]

You know, there is more to the cave diving world than a handful of caves you can drive a truck down. There is a cave not all that far away that has over 10km of passage (and probably not walled out). Unfortunately, I guess its mostly worthless since a significant portion of it is only accessible in sidemount.

Heck, even in the gin clear water you get to dive in. Even in those caves with tunnels you can drive a truck down there is a significant amount of passage you can't fit in backmount. Is you're head is so far up you're @ss that you believe there is no valuable data to be gained doing survey, mapping and sample gathering there? Its just as valuable.

There is more to cave diving than Florida power cave exploration 15000 feet in. And yes, its often 'easier' diving... so flipen what. But you're damn right, its not DIR.

 

[lamont]

My original post was very simple, "If you had to use a sidemount rig, what configuration do you feel would be the most DIR appropriate". That's all.

The problem is that you really should have hit a non-DIR forum and asked "what is the safest way to setup and dive a sidemount rig?"

RTodd gave you the absolutely spot-on DIR/GUE/WKPP answer which is that there's still a ton of cave to explore that doesn't require it.

So, you are asking a group of people who have philosophically decided they don't need to sidemount in this life, what the best way is to sidemount.

Its like asking a catholic priest how to best follow the teachings of muhammad.

You need to seek enlightenment someplace else.

 

[rjack321]

You know, there is more to the cave diving world than a handful of caves you can drive a truck down. There is a cave not all that far away that has over 10km of passage (and probably not walled out). Unfortunately, I guess its mostly worthless since a significant portion of it is only accessible in sidemount.

Heck, even in the gin clear water you get to dive in. Even in those caves with tunnels you can drive a truck down there is a significant amount of passage you can't fit in backmount. Is you're head is so far up you're @ss that you believe there is no valuable data to be gained doing survey, mapping and sample gathering there? Its just as valuable.

There is more to cave diving than Florida power cave exploration 15000 feet in. And yes, its often 'easier' diving... so flipen what. But you're damn right, its not DIR.

For those of you whole fancy yourselves DIR and live near tiny narrow holes in the ground, feel free to work out a acceptable sidemount configuration. There's nothing stopping you. Call it PDQ if you want to, that doesn't matter. But there is no established GUE-DIR sidemount configuration at this date. They haven't promoted their way as the "only" way. The DIR configuration exists to address the majority of the tech and cave diving out there. Its not necessarily adaptable to every place/dive in the universe. Personally I have no interest in diving a tiny little silty hole in the ground, exploration or not. So my choices are DIR configuration and "skip the dive" If you choose to do the dive please report back on your configuration choices and what worked. Maybe when I run out of cool, 200ft vis caves I'll consider sidemount required caves.

 

[Vayu]

Its like asking a catholic priest how to best follow the teachings of muhammad.

You need to seek enlightenment someplace else.

What can motivate a statement such as this? I really have to disagree and refuse to see DIR diving as something that needs to be preached. This would imply faith and thinking divers generally don't take things on faith alone. There has been and will continue to be specialized types of diving that happen on the exploration end of things. You won't find me doing any of it. It requires an extreme personality to be doing true exploring and all divers doing it take extreme measures. I believe the original poster wants to find the best method of doing it and he thinks some DIR affiliated divers have that knowledge. Maybe they do or maybe they don't. In either case I believe it is a good thing to ask a question and a bad thing to tell divers with questions that they need to go someplace else. Our goal in this forum is to help people become safer divers and I believe a little respect is in order.