Dir, utd, wtf?

[RikRaeder]

...Again, these things are not nearly as polarized in real life as they seem on ScubaBoard...

That's good to hear.

 

[RikRaeder]

Dont break rule number 1? C'mon, I havent heard that in awhile...It seems you are trying to stir the DIR pot sir, and I think it is a bit ridiculous.

See my reply above explaining where I got that and why.
Unfortunately, the "DIR pot" doesn't need stirring. That's why I was very hesitant to post question number two, but it is fair question from an outsider. I hoped that I could get a succinct and reasonable answer. I think I've recieved enough fragments to piece it together, but believe me. If there IS a DIR pot, it's self-stirring!

 

[Ben_ca]

Sure. You are paying for a certification renewal. The certification expires as an effort to keep diver skills current. If you are not current, you are not renewed therefore you are no longer certified. Irrespective of how low or high the renewal price is, most members recognize that the renewal requirements are far from actually ensuring an effective recency of skills. Several members here have manifested that even though they are aware of this, they do not mind paying because they like to contribute to the cause/GUE. That is fine and dandy except that monetarily contributing to the cause/GUE has nothing to do with keeping diver skills current. Certification Renewal for the sake of keeping skills updated is not the same a monetary contribution to the cause. You are in effect paying for something that is not true to its name.

Imagine 2 hypothetical divers. Both are the ideal GUE diver in that they haven't had training from any other agency and the GUE certs are the only ones they have. Diver 1 did 25 dives 3 years ago and hasn't dove since. The time to renew arrives, and because he likes to contribute to the cause he renews. GUE produces an official document saying that this diver has current skills and is ready to go out at any time.

Diver 2 did 300 dives in the last 3 years and the last dive he did was last weekend. For some silly reason diver 2 no longer likes GUE. Renewal time arrives and diver 2 refuses to renew because he no longer likes GUE. His cert expires and he gets refused on a charter because he has no current certification.

By the letter of the law Diver 1 would be qualified to go on that charter even though he is not current. And on the other hand, the skills that diver 2 has work so hard to maintain for 3 years are officially disowned by GUE even though the real reason has nothing with skills. Diver 2 now regrets making that lifelong commitment to being a GUE supporter tied as the cost of the availability of an official document that states that he is a capable diver.

It is a hypothetical example and it is very likely that you could get accepted on a charter even with an expired GUE cert. But that is not the point.

Okey I'm tracking now.... Personally I like it that it expires... does that mean anything in the real world? Probably not... but it means something to me.

 

[Gombessa]

Okey I'm tracking now.... Personally I like it that it expires... does that mean anything in the real world? Probably not... but it means something to me.

Me too. When I recert next year, it's not going to be to make some kind of meaningless donation for no benefit, it'll be to recertify my status as an active diver in the organization for another three years. I'm pretty sure I'll be getting something exactly true to its name.

 

[TSandM]

RikRaeder, one of the things that both GUE and UTD teach us is to be thinking divers. We do have a system, that's true, but we understand (or ought to) where the prescriptions in the system come from, and what they are designed to accomplish. It's up to each of us to decide how important each facet is and how insistent we will be upon it.

I have done a bunch of cave diving with mixed groups. We sit down ahead of time and talk about the various things one needs to know to do a cave dive safely -- for example, marking protocols. If people have been taught different marking protocols, we agree on one which everyone is happy to use. I suppose it might be possible that some day, we would be unable to reach consensus, and at that point, we could not form a happy team.

I have friends who are more or less adamant about various points. Some things are dealbreakers, others aren't.

The one thing I do sometimes think about is that I had some unsettling experiences in my Cave 2 class with someone who did not know our communication protocols for valve failures. In a real-life situation, it would have used valuable time to sort out what was going on (and would probably have ended up involving wetnotes). But concerns of that sort haven't kept me from diving with some really great, really fun people.

I don't know as much about technical diving, as I've done very little of it. But I suspect it's the same way -- you either agree on the things that each of you thinks is important, or you do a lesser dive or no dive together. It is not a DIR dive if it isn't done according to the DIR guidelines, but not all dives involving DIR-trained people are DIR dives.

 

[rjack321]

Perhaps I was too harsh likening the process to snake oil scam because I really don't believe anybody is actually being fooled. You're just paying for something that is not really true to its own name, but everybody involved knows this. If I were to find myself in this situation it would leave a sour taste in my mouth. back at you. *Group hug*

Actually most of us who've actually taken GUE training either years ago from JJ when he taught with NACD or something more recent think that the entire industry should head towards "expiring" cards. Where there is at least some recognition and awareness at the agency level of the need to remain current on skills and knowledge instead of just leaving it entirely up to the individual diver and their own preceptions of recency. I did a deco dive in 2008, that's not that long ago...

 

[rjack321]

Diver 2 now regrets making that lifelong commitment to being a GUE supporter tied as the cost of the availability of an official document that states that he is a capable diver.

It is a hypothetical example and it is very likely that you could get accepted on a charter even with an expired GUE cert. But that is not the point.

Funny thing is, on the advanced charters, skippers don't check cards cause they don't have to. You don't just show up, flash a card and dive the USS Monitor. I don't think I've shown a card for a tech dive ever.

For cave diving the only places I've shown a card is at the Sheriff's office for JB and at the Dos Ojos gate. Neither cared about the expiry date on the back.

So the reality is that your hypothetical example is mythical.

 

[rjack321]

I can't do that. I smoke. I'm just asking, not speculating.

Quit

Quit now.

Your family thanks you

 

[kanonfodr]

Quit

Quit now.

Your family thanks you

That sounds like the words of someone who has never been a nicotine addict.

Rik,

just because you smoke doesn't mean you can't join a DIR diver for an easy dive or two. I think the most you would get is a reminder that smoking is not in accordance with either GUE or UTD's ideals and encouragement to quit, but please respect the non-smokers and stand downwind of us while you do your thing.

Peace,
Greg

 

[Sas]

On the smoking thing, how does GUE enforce that? I know at least three Fundies level divers who smoke... Or just ignore my question if it is going to become off topic, don't want to hijack.