Dir, utd, wtf?

[Slamfire]

Funny thing is, on the advanced charters, skippers don't check cards cause they don't have to. You don't just show up, flash a card and dive the USS Monitor. I don't think I've shown a card for a tech dive ever...
So the reality is that your hypothetical example is mythical.

Since C-Cards would only be needed in a mythical world then there's no real reason to renew them in the real world.

Me too. When I recert next year, it's not going to be to make some kind of meaningless donation for no benefit, it'll be to recertify my status as an active diver in the organization for another three years. I'm pretty sure I'll be getting something exactly true to its name.

Actually most of us who've actually taken GUE training either years ago from JJ when he taught with NACD or something more recent think that the entire industry should head towards "expiring" cards. Where there is at least some recognition and awareness at the agency level of the need to remain current on skills and knowledge instead of just leaving it entirely up to the individual diver and their own preceptions of recency. I did a deco dive in 2008, that's not that long ago...

Are you guys seriously advocating for more regulatory controls over your the way you dive? If I do boneheaded diving decisions I am the one who's going to suffer the consequences, not the agency. If the agency is worried about me smearing its precious name with my boneheadedness, fine I'll be more than glad to distance myself from the agency.

I think I'm perfectly capable of determining my own valid recency requirements. I don't need an agency dictating to me what those should be. Nobody is more interested than I am in my own well being. I am the one who's hide is on the line. I am master of my own destiny. I will not relinquish control of that to some organization. My government does not see the need to regulate my diving activities (not yet), why would I voluntarily give that up to some organization? So that I can say I am a member of this distinguished agency? No, thanks, that price is too high.

I guess I may be too independent for this. Enough ranting for today. Have a good night guys.

 

[PfcAJ]

Unfortunately, one persons bone headed decision is enough to affect the rest of us. Caves get closed, insurance goes up, my dive day gets ruined, silly rules from boat captains andthe govt get put in place, etc etc. Is it really that tough to do 25 dives in 3 years? And do you really think you'll be proficient if you do less than that? I know I wouldn't be, and I have enough humility to say that.

In regards to the smoking thing, if you want to lie/cheat your way into classes, and that's your MO, go for it. I, for one, will not be doing anything past blowing bubbles with you at 60ft. It comes down to personal integrity, and hopefully most folks respect that. FWIW, I think the 5 day courses help keep people who smoke away. Its tough to hide it for that long.

I do the vast majority of my dives with an IANTD cave diver who just recently took fundamentals. We are on the same page and use DIR/GUE protocols on every dive. if your buddy is truly on the same page as you, everything is cool. However, I would not do those dives with someone who isn't jiving with those protocols and skills. GUE makes it easy and puts all GUE divers on that page from the get-go. Its nice to be able to just go dive.

 

[Sas]

In regards to the smoking thing, if you want to lie/cheat your way into classes, and that's your MO, go for it. I, for one, will not be doing anything past blowing bubbles with you at 60ft. It comes down to personal integrity, and hopefully most folks respect that. FWIW, I think the 5 day courses help keep people who smoke away. Its tough to hide it for that long.

Umm what? I have no plans to do a Fundies class nor do I smoke. I was just asking because I had seen other GUE qualified divers smoke and was wondering what the go is for enforcing that.

 

[PfcAJ]

I didn't mean you personally, I meant the universal 'you'. Sorry if you thought I meant you when I said you

 

[Sas]

I didn't mean you personally, I meant the universal 'you'. Sorry if you thought I meant you when I said you

Oh... of course, sorry I'm a bit tired, it should have been obvious

 

[Slamfire]

Is it really that tough to do 25 dives in 3 years? And do you really think you'll be proficient if you do less than that? I know I wouldn't be, and I have enough humility to say that.

25 dives in 3 yrs is not tough at all. I would expand on your statement and say that even doing 25 dives in 3 years is not proof that you are proficient. Those 25 dives are surprisingly lax for an agency known for setting very tight and high skills standards. Most people, like you, will acknowledge this. Therefore it then stands to reason that in reality, the renewals are not about keeping proficiency.

If I pay to enroll in a course, I am doing it because I want to get the knowledge and skills that come with that course. The c-card is an official statement from the agency saying I did get the knowledge and skills. A non-expiring c-card will give me the responsibility and the benefit of the doubt about keeping proficient throughout time. An expired c-card by its nature is a statement from the agency saying I am no longer proficient. There is no benefit of the doubt and the responsibility for keeping proficient is now shared with the agency.

I have a BSc in Chemistry. I have not used chemistry in more than 9 years. Should my Bachelor's degree expire then?

What if in the future, GUE takes a direction that goes against some of your principles and you no longer want to contribute to GUE? The expired c-card will be implying that you are no longer proficient when that may not be the case. With expiring c-cards, the mere act of enrolling in a course marries you to the agency in perpetuity. If you want to dissolve that marriage part of the price will be an expired c-card. That is just too much commitment for me.

I feel like I'm talking in circles repeating the same thing. Obviously if you guys are doing the process you're ok with all that. It's a free world and freedom includes the power to give up some of it.

 

[TSandM]

It can actually be fairly difficult to get 25 Tech 2 dives done in three years, depending on where you live.

 

[ucfdiver]

25 dives in 3 yrs is not tough at all. I would expand on your statement and say that even doing 25 dives in 3 years is not proof that you are proficient. Those 25 dives are surprisingly lax for an agency known for setting very tight and high skills standards. Most people, like you, will acknowledge this. Therefore it then stands to reason that in reality, the renewals are not about keeping proficiency.

If I pay to enroll in a course, I am doing it because I want to get the knowledge and skills that come with that course. The c-card is an official statement from the agency saying I did get the knowledge and skills. A non-expiring c-card will give me the responsibility and the benefit of the doubt about keeping proficient throughout time. An expired c-card by its nature is a statement from the agency saying I am no longer proficient. There is no benefit of the doubt and the responsibility for keeping proficient is now shared with the agency.

I have a BSc in Chemistry. I have not used chemistry in more than 9 years. Should my Bachelor's degree expire then?

What if in the future, GUE takes a direction that goes against some of your principles and you no longer want to contribute to GUE? The expired c-card will be implying that you are no longer proficient when that may not be the case. With expiring c-cards, the mere act of enrolling in a course marries you to the agency in perpetuity. If you want to dissolve that marriage part of the price will be an expired c-card. That is just too much commitment for me.

I feel like I'm talking in circles repeating the same thing. Obviously if you guys are doing the process you're ok with all that. It's a free world and freedom includes the power to give up some of it.

I'm going to suggest that you look into courses offered from agencies other than GUE. Clearly they do not provide what you're looking for.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have a BSc in Chemistry. I have not used chemistry in more than 9 years. Should my Bachelor's degree expire then?

I have a BSc in Physics. I have not used my college training in nearly three decades ... and couldn't solve the simplest differential equation today if my life depended on it.

In scuba, your life DOES depend on your training. If the same were true about your college education, then my Bachelor's degree should certainly expire ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

On the smoking thing, how does GUE enforce that? I know at least three Fundies level divers who smoke... Or just ignore my question if it is going to become off topic, don't want to hijack.

At the DIRF level its basically on the honor system. UTD has a no smoking requirement as well BTW but I don't think its been tested.

Beyond the intro-y level its agency discretion.

I don't really want to be around smokers (on a charter boat or cave trip) and I don't want to dive with them. But even bigger, I for damn sure don't want to dive with someone who lies about smoking; that's a huge negative on their character for me.