Dir, utd, wtf?

[RikRaeder]

How do you work out any inter-agency differences in gas planning? You discuss them in advance. My understanding is that even agencies that teach best-mix don't say you *have* to use the best mix, so you should be ok on the standard gases. I'm not Tech trained, but for a Fundies-level dive (<30m, no deco ceiling), you use 32% nitrox and do 30 second stops every 10' from 50% of your max depth. If your agency says you have to do a 3 minute stop at 15', I'd be happy to do that with you as well. I would want to use appropriate gas management (all available, 1/2s, or 1/3s depending on the situation). All-in-all, there's nothing that would stop us from diving together. You may get a little less bottom time because I would want to reserve more gas than you generally do (or maybe not), but I was paranoid about gas reserves before I took Fundies as well.

I was referring specifically to deco dives and tech configuration, but my second question might also fit standard recreational dives. All I read talks about philosophy and holistic systems and I just don't get how that meshes.

 

[lamont]

I was hoping someone could explain what I see as an inconsitency.

Once you graduate from C2/T2 they give you a secret decoder ring to tell you if its okay to do a dive with a non-GUE diver or not.

Or maybe you just use your best judgment, and GUE/UTD trained-or-not is one of the factors that goes into that choice of if to do the dive or not...

 

[gsk3]

I was referring specifically to deco dives and tech configuration, but my second question might also fit standard recreational dives. All I read talks about philosophy and holistic systems and I just don't get how that meshes.

I'm not GUE (or anybody) trained for deco diving, so I gave you an example out of what I am GUE trained for - recreational diving.

There's no mystery to how to do GUE dives recreationally. I just explained the ascent strategy for a recreational dive, and mentioned that you think about (and talk about before every dive) basic gas management, and mentioned the single standard gas for Fundies-level diving (32%). Nothing there that shouldn't be done on every recreational dive (we can certainly quibble about the details of the ascent strategy, but the point is you should have one). Equipment configuration is standardized, although the things that get paid attention to on the internet (left pocket vs. right pocket) are just not a big deal in real life. Pre-dive checks are standardized, but they were for my PADI OW too (BWWARF or something like that). In practice, all of this takes an extra few seconds, and it's stuff that plenty of folks from other agencies espouse and perhaps even rant about all the time on ScubaBoard.

 

[lobstah]

All I read talks about philosophy and holistic systems and I just don't get how that meshes.

Rather than speculating, maybe you should go out and try how it works in practice? I believe you heard from DIR divers that they will dive with you. For some reason you insist that they can't. I am really not sure what makes you think that statements (I understand them differently than you, by the way) from 10 year old book hold more water than actual reality today.

You and your buddy find a middle ground and if it feels safe from both ends you dive. If not, you don't. If it's safe it's DIR for two of you.

 

[gsk3]

Once you graduate from C2/T2 they give you a secret decoder ring to tell you if its okay to do a dive with a non-GUE diver or not.

Or maybe you just use your best judgment, and GUE/UTD trained-or-not is one of the factors that goes into that choice of if to do the dive or not...

I've noticed Halcyon secret decoder rings popping up on eBay recently. If I buy one do I get the C2/T2 cards to go with it?

As far as the factors that go into doing the dive or not, I have always wanted recommendations from divers I trust if I'm going to do a non-quarry dive with you. I semi-trust the card as though it were a recommendation from a diver I know, just not as much as if it were an actual recommendation from an actual person. I'm still going to have a chat about our goals for the dive, views on safety, etc. either way.

Again, these things are not nearly as polarized in real life as they seem on ScubaBoard. I was on a boat with a GUE Cave 2-trained diver in the Bahamas, and I think I was the only one on the whole boat who knew he was GUE. The equipment plus how he looked underwater made me suspect it enough to strike up a conversation. He was instabuddied with a random tourist diver and didn't seem to have a problem with it (nor did he run off and abandon the guy).

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Nope. Google didn't provide any clear information on my question. Are you talking about the thread regarding "Don't break rule #1?"

I was hoping someone could explain what I see as an inconsitency.

Dont break rule number 1? C'mon, I havent heard that in awhile, and quite frankly not from any GUE or UTD divers Ive chatted with. Thing is, you should NEVER dive with someone who you consider unsafe when diving. Why would you?

My take on it is that you are trained above the standards that many divers are trained to. So while may OW students have never heard of rock bottom, or calculated their SAC rates, or know when to really call a dive, or really are comfortable dealing with emergencies in blue water while maintaining position (i know this is true, because at least the people in my OW class didnt learn it, and it isnt covered in the PADI OW manual), GUE students (and UTD) are trained about this--that is where the difference is.

The person you are diving with doesnt have to be GUE, or UTD, or even call themselves DIR as long as they are prepared to your qualifications to help you and him make back to the surface alive.

It seems you are trying to stir the DIR pot sir, and I think it is a bit ridiculous.

 

[ucfdiver]

I have ZERO UTD/DIR training. I've had GUE trained divers willing (and have) to head 5000ft back in a cave with me. If you follow basic safety protocols, GUE divers are very open minded. Anything else you hear is simply a myth.

I can't stand these silly internet rumors that DIR divers are pricks that won't dive outside GUE trained divers.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you please explain?

Sure. You are paying for a certification renewal. The certification expires as an effort to keep diver skills current. If you are not current, you are not renewed therefore you are no longer certified. Irrespective of how low or high the renewal price is, most members recognize that the renewal requirements are far from actually ensuring an effective recency of skills. Several members here have manifested that even though they are aware of this, they do not mind paying because they like to contribute to the cause/GUE. That is fine and dandy except that monetarily contributing to the cause/GUE has nothing to do with keeping diver skills current. Certification Renewal for the sake of keeping skills updated is not the same a monetary contribution to the cause. You are in effect paying for something that is not true to its name.

Imagine 2 hypothetical divers. Both are the ideal GUE diver in that they haven't had training from any other agency and the GUE certs are the only ones they have. Diver 1 did 25 dives 3 years ago and hasn't dove since. The time to renew arrives, and because he likes to contribute to the cause he renews. GUE produces an official document saying that this diver has current skills and is ready to go out at any time.

Diver 2 did 300 dives in the last 3 years and the last dive he did was last weekend. For some silly reason diver 2 no longer likes GUE. Renewal time arrives and diver 2 refuses to renew because he no longer likes GUE. His cert expires and he gets refused on a charter because he has no current certification.

By the letter of the law Diver 1 would be qualified to go on that charter even though he is not current. And on the other hand, the skills that diver 2 has work so hard to maintain for 3 years are officially disowned by GUE even though the real reason has nothing with skills. Diver 2 now regrets making that lifelong commitment to being a GUE supporter tied as the cost of the availability of an official document that states that he is a capable diver.

It is a hypothetical example and it is very likely that you could get accepted on a charter even with an expired GUE cert. But that is not the point.

 

[RikRaeder]

Rather than speculating, maybe you should go out and try how it works in practice? I believe you heard from DIR divers that they will dive with you. For some reason you insist that they can't. I am really not sure what makes you think that statements (I understand them differently than you, by the way) from 10 year old book hold more water than actual reality today.

You and your buddy find a middle ground and if it feels safe from both ends you dive. If not, you don't. If it's safe it's DIR for two of you.

I can't do that. I smoke. I'm just asking, not speculating.

 

[RikRaeder]

Dont break rule number 1? C'mon, I havent heard that in awhile, and quite frankly not from any GUE or UTD divers Ive chatted with. Thing is, you should NEVER dive with someone who you consider unsafe when diving. Why would you?...

That was the closest thing to an answer I could find by Googling "there are no dir divers, just dir dives," as I was advised to do a few posts back.