DIR/GUE OW class

[Jasonmh]

Seems to me that the goal is pretty straightforward... make available a high quality training route to those who want it.

Or, to those who can find it (lack of marketing and few instructors), can be convinced to take it (cause we want people who can be commited, even before they know what they are commiting to), AND can afford it.
For 99% of beginning divers there is no "choosing the best", there is only "choosing". They simply to do not have the background or even a base level of experience to make an informed decision, much less the ability to determine what is "high quality"

 

[lamont]

lamont, I think you just nailed it, and might not even realize it. I believe they aren't going for trying to land you, the uninformed off the street want-to-see-what-diving-is-about student. I believe they are looking primarily for the student that decides to try scuba after listening to all your stories. The student that trusts your opinion implicitly. Those people that you have told in the past to take an OW class, do a few dives, then go take a fundies class to learn what you really need to learn after you have a few dives to understand what you didn't learn in your OW class.

The day I am surrounded by people who trust me implicitly and can sell someone on a $1200 BOW class is the day I start talking to my boss about a career in management...

I can't imagine anyone having never been in a situation where they have told someone "Trust me, it's going to cost more, but it's definitely worth it". I've given that advice hundreds of times, as well as received that advice before. $400 mattress vs. $1200 mattress.... trust me, the $1200 pillow top is the way to go. Same sort of thing here.

rotflmao.

Still, I bet a lot of people buy the $400 mattress first and then sell it or give it away later to upgrade to the $1200 one.

Anyway, I do get it. I'm sure they will get some (lucky) people. I just think that if they threw a slightly wider net they could catch a lot more of the people that wind up going down this path anyway.

I don't think they should compete for the people who are looking for bargain basement training. There are huge swaths of people who try scuba diving that are looking for a $100-$200 investment to let them go swimming down in the tropics on vacation and look at the pretty fishes and you won't reach them until they wake up a bit. I wouldn't suggest that GUE try to play the "loss leader" game to get those people "in the door". But there's other people that just need some education and a push in the right direction, though, but for a lot of them the $1200 price tag will be a barrier. That seems like a shame and a bit of a waste.

But, I do understand that I'm more concerned with outcomes and GUE is more concerned with principles. Really there's a fundamental philosophical difference at work here (and why I'm really a utilitarian and not a libertarian), which ultimately can't be argued out. I hope I'm wrong...

 

[StSomewhere]

Are the GUE instructors still going to travel to a host town to put on an OW class... similar to how they have offered DIR-F in "remote" locations?
...
If the instructor's don't travel, then the class will be severely limited to local students in about 10 US cities... not counting those towns in Florida, of course.

This is the most salient point in my mind. And your figures assume this is one solid week or ten days or whatever. If its offered in a series of weekend classes it'll be absolutely impossible for anyone who's not local to the instructor, forget the wellheeled motivated diver-to-be set. So who is really the target market for the class? Nice if you're from Gainesville or maybe Seattle, I guess.

And I was one like probably most here who didn't know what I didn't know until my first ocean dives.

Regardless, I believe its an admirable goal, just not one a lot of otherwise-motivated people will be able to participate in. Hopefully the DIR-F type core classes will continue to be available.

 

[ericfine50]

It is going to be very interesting to see what the Joe Diver off the street is going to think about 1200 bucks for an OW class. You will get the segment that want that super education and have looked for it.

Maybe GUE is taking the approach NACD or NSS-CDS did - they don't advertise the class, they want people to look for them. Look to them to get the information and decide they want to take a much more intense class.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It is going to be very interesting to see what the Joe Diver off the street is going to think about 1200 bucks for an OW class.

I'm not even sure that the price tag will be the "deal breaker" for most ... not when they find out that there's a good chance they won't pass the first time around.

If the standards are kept as high as they are in DIR-F, not passing will probably be the rule rather than the exception. Bob Sherwood already said there's no "provisional" for this class.

That's the part I'm trying to envision ... from a practical standpoint, these students will either have to come out of the gate as quicker learners than most of today's DIR-F students ... or the instructors will have to teach things in a way that it's absorbed more effectively ... or GUE will have to accept a lower level of performance than they currently do with their DIR-F students.

A quick, informal "poll", if you will ... of those of you who are currently involved in this conversation, did you "pass" your DIR-F class the first time around? Or did you get a "provisional" and have to take it again? If the latter, did you practice your skills before the re-eval? The OW student won't have this option, since they won't be certified.

So what happens to the student who doesn't pass? Pay another $1200 to take it again? Remember, you don't have a C-card ... there's no opportunity to go out with your classmates and "practice" for six months to try to bring those skills up to standard. So what makes you think, from the standpoint of your in-water skills, that you'll do any better the second time around?

Anyone ... even those with more disposable income than they know what to do with ... will want some assurance that their $1200 will eventually earn them the right to dive.

I'm not suggesting the GUE folks haven't considered these things ... I'm suggesting that anyone thinking to lay down that kind of money probably will ... and certainly should.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Bob Sherwood]

To be clear, the currrent fundamentals standards do not differentiate from a recreational diver and one that wants to take tec or cave next week. We already agreed that they are two different types of divers needing different levels of performance.
In the past in order to meet the standards all had to perform to the highest level. holding a recreational diver to entry tec standards. this places a higher bar and produces a better recreational fundamentals student.
It also leaves those with no desire for technical diving to meet a standard that exceeds the level of diving they are pursuing.
There are a lot of students that have "provisionals" that would meet the recreational standard, but not the technical standard. Look for a lot more people to be succesful/certified with the new four full days format. Even those desiring the tec standards might meet the rec standard, leaving the class with a rec certification. They can then go practice, and when ready do an evaluation dive (fee applies) to the tec standards and be signed off.

As for OW, The format is flexable in that it can be done over an 8 day straight period, or broken into 8-16 evening sessions, depending on how much time students can dedicate at one time. then dives.
I have taught this program over the evening format with great success (LOCALLY).
(Where I believe the first GUE OW divers will come from.)
As for not passing. Looking back to ow students in the past that have had trouble with content, or physical ability this was only an issue in larger classes. but when the class size was small and more attention could be given to each student. No issues.
We are not saying that there won't be one or two people that will have problems, but this should not be the rule. I'm confident that our instructor core who will be teaching this course will work out all the details with their students prior to/during the course.
Best, Bob

If the standards are kept as high as they are in DIR-F, not passing will probably be the rule rather than the exception. Bob Sherwood already said there's no "provisional" for this class.

That's the part I'm trying to envision ... from a practical standpoint, these students will either have to come out of the gate as quicker learners than most of today's DIR-F students ... or the instructors will have to teach things in a way that it's absorbed more effectively ... or GUE will have to accept a lower level of performance than they currently do with their DIR-F students.

A quick, informal "poll", if you will ... of those of you who are currently involved in this conversation, did you "pass" your DIR-F class the first time around? Or did you get a "provisional" and have to take it again? If the latter, did you practice your skills before the re-eval? The OW student won't have this option, since they won't be certified.

So what happens to the student who doesn't pass? Pay another $1200 to take it again? Remember, you don't have a C-card ... there's no opportunity to go out with your classmates and "practice" for six months to try to bring those skills up to standard. So what makes you think, from the standpoint of your in-water skills, that you'll do any better the second time around?

Anyone ... even those with more disposable income than they know what to do with ... will want some assurance that their $1200 will eventually earn them the right to dive.

I'm not suggesting the GUE folks haven't considered these things ... I'm suggesting that anyone thinking to lay down that kind of money probably will ... and certainly should.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

To be clear, the currrent fundamentals standards do not differentiate from a recreational diver and one that wants to take tec or cave next week. We already agreed that they are two different types of divers needing different levels of performance.
In the past in order to meet the standards all had to perform to the highest level. holding a recreational diver to entry tec standards. this places a higher bar and produces a better recreational fundamentals student.
It also leaves those with no desire for technical diving to meet a standard that exceeds the level of diving they are pursuing.
There are a lot of students that have "provisionals" that would meet the recreational standard, but not the technical standard. Look for a lot more people to be succesful/certified with the new four full days format. Even those desiring the tec standards might meet the rec standard, leaving the class with a rec certification. They can then go practice, and when ready do an evaluation dive (fee applies) to the tec standards and be signed off.

As for OW, The format is flexable in that it can be done over an 8 day straight period, or broken into 8-16 evening sessions, depending on how much time students can dedicate at one time. then dives.
I have taught this program over the evening format with great success (LOCALLY).
(Where I believe the first GUE OW divers will come from.)
As for not passing. Looking back to ow students in the past that have had trouble with content, or physical ability this was only an issue in larger classes. but when the class size was small and more attention could be given to each student. No issues.
We are not saying that there won't be one or two people that will have problems, but this should not be the rule. I'm confident that our instructor core who will be teaching this course will work out all the details with their students prior to/during the course.
Best, Bob

Thanks Bob ... that is exactly the type of information I'm looking for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[StSomewhere]

There are a lot of students that have "provisionals" that would meet the recreational standard, but not the technical standard. Look for a lot more people to be succesful/certified with the new four full days format. Even those desiring the tec standards might meet the rec standard, leaving the class with a rec certification. They can then go practice, and when ready do an evaluation dive (fee applies) to the tec standards and be signed off.

I'm really not trying to nitpick here, but don't the current GUE standards explicitly prohibit granting a lesser certification where a greater one was attempted? i.e. You can't attempt Tech1 and get a pass for just Triox?

 

[MHK]

I'm not even sure that the price tag will be the "deal breaker" for most ... not when they find out that there's a good chance they won't pass the first time around.

If the standards are kept as high as they are in DIR-F, not passing will probably be the rule rather than the exception. Bob Sherwood already said there's no "provisional" for this class.

(Grateful Diver)

Bob,

One of the things the industry has historically mistaken is the ability of students to grasp primal concepts. All too often the industry has sacraficed actual training for the sake of increasing ratio's. My favorite example of this is the manner in which most teach the mask R & R. Most, not all but way too many, teach this skill almost exclusively with the students sitting on their knees, usually with a few extra pounds on them. This is what the student is taught initially and while it's makes it easier for the instructor to "control" the student, it is a less then ideal way to introduce your student to that skill. You've violated the fundamental teaching principle of primacy. This became necessary as the ratio's increased from 6:1, then 8:1 and then 10:1 [ with a DM], as the number of students increased these ad hoc ideas crept there way into training such to the point that they've become the norm. At 4:1 with the extended lessons I disagree with you in terms of the "passing" being the exception rather then the rule.

By way of example, I have a pretty high "non-passing" rate at the DIR-F level. If I had to guess I'd say it's in the 75% area on the first time. However, once I give the students what they need to practice, and they go out and do it, if they go on to a Triox class I find that the passing rate increases significantly, I would say in the 75% range. In other words, once they've been taught the skills at the lower level, they excel more easily at the higher level. I suspect strongly you'll see a similiar progression in terms of OW students. If students are taught properly from the outset, and are conditioned that they need to earn the card based upon proper completion of the skills, I'll be surprised if passing is the exception. We've been beta testing this class for some time and what I've found is that when you teach the skills right from the outset to be done properly, is that students take a little extra time to learn them, but nonetheless they get them. This, of course, can't be done with ratio's of up to 10:1, or done during the $99 weekend special. We fully appreciate that many will still want the $99 weekend special, and we have no intention of competing in that market, we simply plan to make available to those that want it, a true and viable alternative to a more complete level of introductory training.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At 4:1 with the extended lessons I disagree with you in terms of the "passing" being the exception rather then the rule.

By way of example, I have a pretty high "non-passing" rate at the DIR-F level. If I had to guess I'd say it's in the 75% area on the first time. However, once I give the students what they need to practice, and they go out and do it, if they go on to a Triox class I find that the passing rate increases significantly, I would say in the 75% range. In other words, once they've been taught the skills at the lower level, they excel more easily at the higher level. I suspect strongly you'll see a similiar progression in terms of OW students.

We fully appreciate that many will still want the $99 weekend special, and we have no intention of competing in that market, we simply plan to make available to those that want it, a true and viable alternative to a more complete level of introductory training.

Hope that clears it up.

I've snipped out all but the relevent parts ... hope you don't mind.

I am not talking about a comparison with the "week-end wonders" ... I am asking how ... if these students are being held to DIR-F standards ... will they pass a class without the ability to go out (as current DIR-F provisional students do) and work on the skills you identify as needing improvement?

You say that your current "non-pass" rate with Fundamentals is at around 75%, but with practice, these students go on to pass and excel at higher-level classes.

I understand that. But the difference is that until these students pass the OW class, they are not certified to "go out and practice". That option isn't available to them without a C-card. So how do they go and improve their skills to the point where they can meet the bar?

Will you, as their instructor, be willing to work with them through additional confined water or OW dives, until such time as they can achieve the level of proficiency required? And if so, at what cost. And if not, what are their alternatives?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)