DIR/GUE OW class

[MXGratefulDiver]

Take, for another example, the "deep" dive in the AOW class. Again, more often then not, other then perhaps a math problem or two you generally don't see much in the way of skills. The same could be said for the "night" dive, no real skills inasmuch as they escort a diver at night.

Hmmm ... I think it's not a good idea to assume that non-GUE instructors don't teach real skills.

For example, here's a description of the night and deep dives from my last AOW class ..

Dive 3 – Night Dive (Cove 2)

The objective of this dive is to practice limited visibility techniques such as diving in formation, using light signals, locating a buddy who’s light has failed, and deploying your safety gear. We will start the dive at a buoy in approximately 30 fsw and dive to a maximum depth of 50 fsw. During this dive you and your buddy will maintain visual contact, use light signals for communication, and use the navigation techniques you practiced on previous dives to keep track of where you are. At some point, the supervisor (myself or a designated DM) will experience a light failure. The dive team will be responsible for locating the “lost” diver and assisting in whatever problems may be encountered. When the supervisor indicates that it is time to turn the dive, the dive team will be responsible for “leading” us back to the buoy where the dive started. We will retrieve the buoy and swim to shore at the cove entrance.

Dive 5 – Deep Dive (Cove 2 I-Beams)

The objective of this dive is to practice dive planning and execution, and to test your ability to respond to a dive emergency under the effects of nitrogen narcosis.

Prior to this dive I will provide you with a dive plan. You will use the measurements you took on Dive 4 to determine how much air you estimate needing for the deep dive based on the dive plan.

You will execute the dive plan as a buddy team … and I will follow. At some point in the dive I will approach each of you and indicate that I am out of air. You will donate air to me while maintaining a hover. Key is to deliver the donating regulator quickly, then do everything else slowly and methodically. I will be looking for good buoyancy control as well as an appropriate OOA response.

The objective is to keep as close to the dive plan as possible, and to see how close your predicted air consumption is to your actual air consumption.

It ain't DIR ... but it's erroneous to suggest that we don't teach real skills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jeckyll]

.....
It ain't DIR ... but it's erroneous to suggest that we don't teach real skills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, unfortunately I have a feeling you are in the minority (based purely on my experience in AOW last weekend).

I wish that more people used the approach you outlined for their classes.

Bjorn

 

[MHK]

In fact, if DIR-F is now 4 days, that means they are getting OW, AOW, and nitrox in 4 days! So many of you guys complain about people getting certified OW in a weekend. This doesn't appear to be much different.

Seems like a step backwards for GUE to me....

Had you ever considered looking at this from a different point of view? Consider that the bulk of my time in a DIR-F class is spent teaching things that weren't covered and/or glossed over in previous training. So it isn't as if they'll be basic OW info and then piled on top of that will be DIR-F info. The better way to see it is that it's all basic info but the dive industry up until now has spread it out over several classes, whereas the GUE approach is that it's all needed info to produce a competent, confident and qualified diver. The piecemeal approach has lent itself to mass production of c-cards at an accelerated pace that has earned record profits for the privately held, for-profit agencies but have compromised quality of education.

The better question to ask other agencies isn't why is GUE teaching so much, it's why are they teaching so little? You'll have to purchase 4 c-cards [ at $30 per], 4 crew paks [ at ~$55 per] from the agencies for the same level of training you'll receive in one OW program at GUE. Those that are suggesting that GUE is somehow or another making changes to increase revenue may want to consider how many c-cards we are leaving on the table by opting to go the more complete and thorough route right out of the box. The business models couldn't possibly be any different as it's clear that other agencies prefer to have the student buy 4 c-cards for the price of one GUE card. 4 C-cards and 4 crew paks alone will cost you $330 and you haven't even considered the cost of the underlying classed ( OW, AOW, Rescue & Nitrox).. The math isn't that outrageous, it's just GUE will make less and the students will learn more..

Hope that helps.

 

[MHK]

Hmmm ... I think it's not a good idea to assume that non-GUE instructors don't teach real skills.


It ain't DIR ... but it's erroneous to suggest that we don't teach real skills ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I prefaced my comments earlier by saying that there are quality instructors, non-GUE, that teach excellent classes. Moreover, I prefaced my specific comments whilst saying that I was addressing the stereotypical classes. I apologize if my post came out as suggesting that only GUE instructors are capable of teaching exceelent classes, as I don't believe that to be the case.

Sorry for the confusion.

Regards

 

[kalvyn]

I prefaced my comments earlier by saying that there are quality instructors, non-GUE, that teach excellent classes. Moreover, I prefaced my specific comments whilst saying that I was addressing the stereotypical classes. I apologize if my post came out as suggesting that only GUE instructors are capable of teaching exceelent classes, as I don't believe that to be the case.

Thanks for the clarification! I ended up doing private instruction for my OW (NAUI), and I feel that my instructor turned out a pretty good diver. There were most definitely things that I was not taught, particularly surrounding gas management, but I think that is a shortcoming of almost all current OW class offerings.

I can only speak for myself, but at the time I was looking to get certified I know I would not have been willing to pony up $1200 for OW certification. I wasn't sure that I was going to continue diving beyond going to the tropics once a year, and the $400 I ended up paying for private instruction seemed pretty steep to me at the time.

In retrospect, I wish I had had the opportunity to take a class like GUE's OW class. BUT, and this is a BIG but, that's speaking with hindsight. I didn't even know what I didn't know until I started diving regularly here in the Puget Sound after my post-certification trip to Hawaii. As a matter of fact, Bob was the first person to suggest to me that I was on the path to DIR... he knew before I did. I ended up doing a fundies very early in my diving career, which is the way to do it in my opinion.

Lastly, it is my opinion that a lot of DIR folks regularly trash dive training and specific agencies. While some of the criticisms are accurate, just making blanket statements about everyone and everything not GUE is foolish and counter-productive. I think that's what Bob was reacting to (though I certainly can't speak for Bob), and in my opinion having heard it myself WAY too often it is understandable that he would be sensitive to this. I know that while my NAUI OW instructor wasn't DIR in any way, shape or form, he certainly made sure I was at least not a rototilling charlie foxtrot in motion, split fins and all.

Jimmie

 

[Bob Sherwood]

While there have been those that trash other agencies/people, this is more of a people skills issue than anything else. Most that handle things this way handle other things in life this way. Judge people for individuals actions. Agencies for handling how their representatives represent.
Some agencies work MUCH harder at quality control than others.
I don't think we need to place a disclaimer with every post that we believe other instructors from other agencies teach good programs. We do.
There are some great instructors from ALL agencies, and some really bad ones.
Best, Bob
.

 

[ericfine50]

bob,

You mentioned that you have been beta testing the OW program - how does a non-diver initally react when you explain the course to them? Do you weed out the "dive only once a year" types? Just wondering what the reactions were form that point of view.

Thanks

 

[TSandM]

You have to consume 50 cu ft of air for a dive to count? Does that mean that none of my Fundies dives counted? 'Cuz on average, I used about 15 cu ft of air on those dives . . . I have to be down a lot longer than 30 minutes at 15 feet to use half of a 95 cu ft tank

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Eric,
There are two different types of people that want to dive. The I'm going on my honey moon wanna see the fish, dive a couple times a year people, and the I've wanted to do this forever, didn't have the time or money, now I do, wanna get going how do we progress person.
We do a pretty good job of explaining the benefits of each option, and in this discussion it is usually easy to define what the intention of the client is.
I find that people don't have an issue spending money as long as the perceive AND receive value for their dollar.
This said, all of our programs at the store are done in such a way that if they opt for one of the other programs, they can pretty easily transition back to GUE if they choose later, because they already have the appropriate equipment, and have at least an understanding of definitions. Best, Bob

 

[Derek S]

I find that people don't have an issue spending money as long as the perceive AND receive value for their dollar.

And this is what it really boils down to. GUE isn't going to bring in the numbers that PADI, NAUI, SSI or PDIC does, but then again, GUE has never been about quantity.

It must be very gratifying (and humorous) for people like MHK, Bob S, JJ and GI3 who've been around, seen the mainstream ridicule them, then contemplate them, and now emulate them (for fiscal reasons to be sure).

NAUI Tech's program states to use JJ's Anatomy of a Technical Diver as a guideline for gear configuration. DSAT probably wouldn't exist if PADI didn't realize that they could capitalize on the wave of divers wanting to do the things that WKPP/GUE and other technical divers had been doing all along for their own gratification, not profit.

The industry needs to make money to survive, simple as that. I don't begrudge anyone from making a living. I surely would rather give a GUE instructor $1200 to teach me how to be the best diver I can rather than the $1,010 I've spent on OW - $500, EANx - $210 and AOW - $300 (which still isn't completed - long story), not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on gear that I didn't need and ended up taking a loss on. And I still don't feel like I'm half the diver I could or should be.

Those who were unable to attend the GUE conference in November missed a real treat. Seeing the enthusiasm and knowledge exuded by the presenters was inspiring to say the least. I've been in LDS'es that you can tell that they might have loved the sport at one time, but now they're more concerned about filling their coffers than giving you the right advice or selling you the correct gear that you are asking for (again, another long story). Not the case with GUE and it's divers, or at least what I've been around.

Instead of sitting here and lamenting the fact that you think the GUE OW program is great but will fail, how about putting a positive spin on it and seeing what you can do to help ensure that it doesn't fail? I know that if anyone comes to me and asks about what to do if they want to get certified, I am going to point them in the direction of GUE's OW program. Ultimately it will be their decision in the end, but I will have known that I tried to do my part.

Just my 002 psi......