DIR/GUE OW class

[Bob Sherwood]

YES WE DO.

.does GUE actually believe that all of this training is absolutely necessary before you can allow a new diver to go off and practice their skills on their own (of course in teams)?

We can not think of a single thing to take out of this class that we would want our students out there without. Believe me, we tried. What is there is what we believe needs to be addressed. The only potential wiggle room,was in the student to instructor ratio's. All agreed that we can teach a better class with less people. Best, bob

 

[Kim]

YES WE DO.


We can not think of a single thing to take out of this class that we would want our students out there without. Believe me, we tried. What is there is what we believe needs to be addressed. The only potential wiggle room,was in the student to instructor ratio's. All agreed that we can teach a better class with less people. Best, bob

OK - that's fair and clear enough. Thank you for letting us know how things stand with this!

 

[Bob Sherwood]

Kim
we looked at that and could not find way to break the content into smaller lots that didn't belong together.

I think we are simply asking why it's not possible to do the same thing in smaller pieces. :06:

 

[JeffG]

Kim
we looked at that and could not find way to break the content into smaller lots that didn't belong together.

Question:

Given that the DIR-f is getting changed. With GUE splitting up the fundi's into a Rec or Tech distinction. (With the Tech fundi's as the requirement to advance to Cave 1 and/or Tech 1. It also has to be done in doubles.)

So my guess is that GUE OW will have the equiv of the Rec-Fundies, which means that a Gue OW Diver would still have to take Tec-Fundi's to get into Cave 1 and/or Tech 1.

Is that correct?

 

[Dan Gibson]

Mike,

It seems to me that this tactic hasn't really worked all that well in the industry. Just look at the dropout rate and all he shops that complain they have a hard time making ends meet. Those that drop out certainly don't keep buying gear. IMO, that is a stupid business model. Time for a new (or is that old?) model.

Dilluting the education part of the equation to inflate the sales arm of the equation is a large part of the problem, and I doubt you'll see anyone at GUE contributing to that problem.

 

[scubaputz]

This is a great debate, unfortunately, we're all certified divers and now know what should have been convered in OW but wasn't. It's great that GUE has released a comprehensive program and I would like to think that I would have taken this route in the beginning, but I know I wouldn't have. As a poor college student 15 years ago, it was hard enough shelling out $250. Once I caught the bug, equipment and training costs became a non-issue (just don't tell my wife how much I have invested in the scooter, twin 130s and 21W HID light )

Putz

 

[lamont]

It's about providing the best dive training in the industry to those who want to commit their personal time and money to doing something better than the other guy with the low standards. These people exist, and they are the people taking Fundamentals and Tech 1 and Cave 2. The same types of people will be the ones in the GUE OW classes.

I was diving in a BP/W, fully DIR-compliant setup for post-BOW dive #1. I got PADI OW certified and then did a bunch of research and then dropped a *ton* of money buying all my own gear and drank the kool-aid right away. Took DIRF around dive #25.

I would not have signed up for a $1200 OW class before OW and you could not have sold me on one. Honestly, I don't think I would have taken fundies at dive #25 if it had cost $1200, since I would have had to digest that one for a bit longer -- and I'm practically the poster boy for disposable income.

If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what i know now, I would certainly take the $1200 GUE OW class. If I did it all over again "for real", though, I'd be just as ignorant back then as I was when I took my first OW course and I'd opt for the $200 PADI class. Heck, I actually made a conscious decision to take a 2-weekend abbreviated PADI course instead of the longer full course when I started because I didn't know any better.

The price causes a significant barrier to entry. I think with a $400 price you could find people who would be willing to pay twice as much, and once they went through the class and got themselves somewhat educated I think they'd immediately be right back in for the other $800 and the rest of the training -- but up front, I think $1200 is going to be such a barrier to entry that the graduates will be few and it will have minimal impact on the rest of the industry.

I'm sure the graduates from the GUE OW course will be amazing divers out of the gate, though, and I'll definitely be jealous, and I wish GUE all the luck in the world.

 

[jonnythan]

The price causes a significant barrier to entry.

...the graduates will be few and it will have minimal impact on the rest of the industry.

I dunno, but I think Jarrod is perfectly OK with that. Seems to me that the goal is pretty straightforward... make available a high quality training route to those who want it. DIRF for certified divers and OW class for those who want the best.

It's not about market share. It's simply about providing the best training available, and if people want it they will take the classes.

 

[Jasonmh]

Jason,

As you may imagine, we've discussed these issues internally prior to releasing the program. That said, the conversation(s) probably didn't go in the direction much of the non-GUE instructor core would imagine. It's very difficult to post, since things often come off differently in cyber-space then intended, but I'll give it a shot. ...
Hope that helps.

Thanks for the info. I definitely can appreciate that it can be very hard to get ideas across on the internet.
I have a lot of respect for what GUE is trying to do, and I hope it is successful by whatever measure GUE deems as success. I have no doubt, as almost everyone else watching this thread, that the value of the class far exceeds the theoretical $1200 price. I believe that the value of the class is worth far more than that.
I was lucky enough to do a few recreational dives recently with a GUE instructor. My experience with him was enough to convince me that the decision to take the fundies class was the right one, and that I would pay almost any price for that kind of instruction (hopefully he isn't reading this, haha). But if I am being honest I have to say that there is no way that I would have taken the OW course if I had been offered it back when I was looking for an open water class, and I don't know anyone that would. Now that may not matter much, esp. since I am not a canidate for the OW class anyway, nor am I an expert in business or diving. And obviously GUE is doing alot right, as I am now hooked on the idea of the DIR-F and beyond.
I am not saying (and I don't think that anyone else is either) that the idea is a bad one. It is a matter of degrees. Yes, the course seems like a good idea, but it seems to me that some small changes could make it even better for GUE and divers. Like Lamont suggests, splitting things up into 2 courses appears to me to be a way to attract more interest while still maintaining high standards.
It is clear that alot of input from instructors was taken in setting up this course. Which is one thing that prompted my comment in another post that this seems like a course designed by experts, for experts, without the potential OW diver in mind. I hope that somewhere in there was some dry runs with people who this class is actually targeted for, or some market research to see peoples reactions to this kind of course. However GUE does it, best of luck.

 

[Spectre]

If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what i know now, I would certainly take the $1200 GUE OW class. If I did it all over again "for real", though, I'd be just as ignorant back then as I was when I took my first OW course and I'd opt for the $200 PADI class. Heck, I actually made a conscious decision to take a 2-weekend abbreviated PADI course instead of the longer full course when I started because I didn't know any better.

lamont, I think you just nailed it, and might not even realize it. I believe they aren't going for trying to land you, the uninformed off the street want-to-see-what-diving-is-about student. I believe they are looking primarily for the student that decides to try scuba after listening to all your stories. The student that trusts your opinion implicitly. Those people that you have told in the past to take an OW class, do a few dives, then go take a fundies class to learn what you really need to learn after you have a few dives to understand what you didn't learn in your OW class.

I can't imagine anyone having never been in a situation where they have told someone "Trust me, it's going to cost more, but it's definitely worth it". I've given that advice hundreds of times, as well as received that advice before. $400 mattress vs. $1200 mattress.... trust me, the $1200 pillow top is the way to go. Same sort of thing here. They aren't going to get the average student that walks into the average shop and picks out an OW instructor based on price and how many stars they have on their PADI sticker on the door. They are going to go after the informed student that wants the best that money can buy, and has the encouragement from those that they respect that it's worth the money that's being shelled out.

The other, smaller market that they might touch on, are those that come onto these boards to learn all they can learn before they even get into an OW class. How many posts have we had here on SB from people thinking about taking a diving course. How many of those have gotten an idea of who GUE is and what DIR is and thought they might want to go down that path once they are ready. Now they have an option to go down that path from the get-go.

You must remember one thing, and that comes down to "knowing what you know now". Just because you didn't know what you know now, then, doesn't mean you can't teach those that respect you, what you know now. Or at least enough to help them understand the difference between a $99 speed course at joe's diving shop who's going to convince them to buy $1200 in gear that they'll be tossing away in a year, and a $1200 course that sets them down the recommended path that you would have taken if you knew then what you know now.

I think Mike's example is a great one. You can find one hell of a range of prices on a college education. People don't shop for a college based on price... why should scuba be any different? Perhaps if GUE decided to adopt an application program and they only accepted a certain number of applicants a year, people would start to see the correlation and accept it for what it is.... higher quality education then what any joe shmo could get at his local community colleg....er... dive shop.