DIR/GUE OW class

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Here's what I would have guessed that GUE would have put out as a curriculum:

Phase 1 : Basic OW, DIR F and Nitrox.
reasoning: Basic OW and DIRF are really a natural extention of each other, and the DIR F part is really what OW should have been all along anyway. I included Nitrox because of the gas requirements of DIR in the "shallow" zones.

Phase 2. Rescue class and a real AOW class
reasoning: You need some dives under your belt to a. be comfortable with, and b. understand the issues involved with the rescue of another person and the problems that occur at depth.

I almost included RecTriox in Phase 2, and I'm not sure that I still wouldn't include it. It was certainly the most fun of the classes I took, but that was because I was already comfortable with my bouyancy and trim.

I left skin diving out because it isn't a scuba class. I'm not sure why GUE included it.

For what it's worth.....
 
Tollie:
Bob, MHK

My disappointment comes from my own wish for the gifted instructors and the GUE leadership to have produced a genuine basic o/w course. Such a class takes non-divers to a higher level of diving skill, situational awareness and a strong knowledge base which helps keep divers safer than is commonly taught within a time and cost structure that many students can benefit from. From a very initial look, this has not been done.

One other point. The current cadre of GUE instructors is exceptionally skilled and have devoted time to developing what might be considered “pioneer grade” capabilities in environments that very few other instructors world wide posses. I wonder if skill levels of this type are really absolutely, positively necessary to teach a really sound basic o/w class.

Tollie,

One of the unintended byproducts of the DIR-F class was that as a result of the success of that class, it caused many, many previously certified students to question and challenge the status quo in the dive industry. There are a multiplicity of ways to effect and change the industry, and certainly teaching a higher quality class is one of them, but I firmly believe that another way to do it is to empower the marketplace. Once divers experience the difference between what and how we teach what we teach, they question their earlier classes. I strongly suspect that you are going to see the same cause and effect with respect to the OW class.

The dive industry is a very diverse group of people, and that diversity allows for a wide latitude of flexibility. Many of the existing agencies have operated in a vacuum for the last decade or so, inasmuch as IANTD and TDI led the way at the technical level, and PADI & NAUI led the way at the recreational level, so any "competition" [ such as the term is used] was miniscule, and any real challenges to the staus quo were virtually nonexistent. NAUI went with Nitrox and PADI quickly followed. NAUI went into the tech market, and PADI quickly followed, but in the final analysis the last decade or so there have been very minimal changes in the industry that had any lasting impact. The exception to that, in my view, is the formation of GUE. GUE has caused a ripple effect on the industry, and while it started from the top down, it is now more influential because of it's impact on divers and more influential because of the information that it has provided to the next generation of the diving community. Everyone says this, or that, can't be done, but then we go out and defy our critics every time. A large part of that impact is a direct result of the diversity I spoke of above. What the status quo of the dive industry was too quick to dismiss was the segment of the market that did in fact what more challenging classes, and what the existing status quo was too slow to respond to was the impact this segment would have on their students. You see a knee jerk reaction as many of the agencies try to respond with ideas like HeliTrox, or DIR-F like classes, but the larger picture the agencies miss is that the ability to offer classes such as this isn't the issue, the belief in the underlying tennants of the class is what the marketplace wants. Unless, and until, the industry embraces that methodology GUE has nothing to worry about. And if you have an existing infastructure in place that requires issuing 964,000 c-cards per year to meet your earnings per share estimates, it's unlikely that at anytime soon they'll be willing to sacrafice the revenue in favor of higher caliber classes. It's a simple matter of economics and a variance in ideological methodologies.

Existing agencies serve, and to a large extent created, a segment of the marketplace. GUE was formed, and to a certain extent was created to serve a different part of the marketplace. We wish them well in their endevours and we will just continue to go about our business with little worry about how they respond to our efforts..

If you go back into the archives of rec.scuba or the old tech diver list, you'll see volumes and volumes of naysayers saying the same thing about the DIR-F class as they are now saying about the OW class. It's history repeating itself all over again, and the critics were wrong then, and I suspect strongly time will prove them wrong again. The myth that divers want shorter, faster and cheaper classes was created by shops and agencies that benefited from the streamlined approach. Now that there is an alternative vehicle available we'll just let the marketplace do it's thing ;-)

Hope that helps.

Regards,
 
MHK:
The myth that divers want shorter, faster and cheaper classes was created by shops and agencies that benefited from the streamlined approach. Now that there is an alternative vehicle available we'll just let the marketplace do it's thing ;-)

MHK: Well put. All the best in your new OW course. If you learn to fly do you want the cheapest and shortest instruction-of course not. For these past years the $99.00and $199.00 courses have been the standard. Do it fast, do it less expensive. The result-a multi year decline in sales @ SCUBA retail. Much less qualified divers etc. I first learned to dive in San Digeo in 1971-72. I took four courses in a row and went diving with my instructors for my first 50-80 dives. I'm not even close to being the worlds greatest diver but I did learn from real dedicated pros and I'm still diving 34 years later. Those early skills I practiced have come in handy a few times. Quality instruction always prevails. You are moving in the right direction.
 
While you're not saying anything we don't already know and agree with MHK, the financial reality of a $1200 OW class is a totally different ball game than a 3-400 dollar DIR-F AFTER the fact that NOW the student knows better. Before hand though?, not much of a chance really.

If you're ok with 20 OW's a year, I can see GUE succeeding in this approach. At least for a long time. The $$$ call is a huge road-block, and when it gets this far out of sync (From the the potential customers view) it's a tough one. I'm strictly looking at this from the business end. Very tough, but I applaud.

My personal joy of seeing this thing rolled out is actually on a few levels, as yourself and Bob have said.

1.) Raising the bar for the other agencies OW classes. I see this as a win-win for everyone.

2.) Quite possibly an $$$ increase to the average OW class which will afford (hopefully) more pay for the instructor which hopefully will provide another incentive to allow more time for Rule # 1 above.

3.) Maybe this OW will give the prospective OW Instructor more ideas on how to better their own classes.

This is nothing but good for divers any way it plays out.

I can't wait to see the scrambling from a few agencies. The next fews years may prove to be very educational.

Regards
 
Although your response was to Tollie, I hope you don't mind if I respond to your comment below.

MHK:
One of the unintended byproducts of the DIR-F class was that as a result of the success of that class, it caused many, many previously certified students to question and challenge the status quo in the dive industry.

That is a good point, and well said, like the rest of your post. The difference I see in the comparison between the two offerings (the OW and the DIR-F) is the part about "previously certified students". The difference being that the student that has already been certified has something of a background to judge what he is being offered against. The target student for the OW course does not have that background. I would hope that GUE would tailor the course and promotion of the course to the type of individual the course is for, much the same way a speaker writes a speech with his intended audience in mind.
I wonder, do you know how GUE is going to promote this course?
I am not being a "critic" for the sake of being critical. I hope that the course is successful. But at the risk of sounding like a pessimist about people in general, I think that there will always be a large number of people who do go for that $199 flying lesson :)
 
Jasonmh:
I wonder, do you know how GUE is going to promote this course?
Since they no longer have AG, I can only think that they will put Dan Mackay (with his infinite patience) on a long term speaking tour across North America.
 
JeffG:
Since they no longer have AG, I can only think that the will put Dan Mackay (with his infinite patience) on a long term speaking tour across North America.

Ok you troublemaker. What else can you expect from a guy that provides automatic weapons to his pets :)
 
One thing to remember is that the $1200 also includes an education in what gear you should be diving.

When I add up the cost of various types of gear over the years (jacket BCD, back-inflate BC, several sets of fins, many clip-on danglies to put onto ever more D-rings, snorkels) it may be that having the right equipment education at the beginning may have saved me more than that amount over the years.
 
Jasonmh:
The difference I see in the comparison between the two offerings (the OW and the DIR-F) is the part about "previously certified students". The difference being that the student that has already been certified has something of a background to judge what he is being offered against. The target student for the OW course does not have that background. I would hope that GUE would tailor the course and promotion of the course to the type of individual the course is for, much the same way a speaker writes a speech with his intended audience in mind.
I wonder, do you know how GUE is going to promote this course?

Jason,

As you may imagine, we've discussed these issues internally prior to releasing the program. That said, the conversation(s) probably didn't go in the direction much of the non-GUE instructor core would imagine. It's very difficult to post, since things often come off differently in cyber-space then intended, but I'll give it a shot. Those of us that have invested the time and commitment to get to instructor status have long ago abandoned the status quo point of view, so in terms of marketing the program, each instructor will do as they always have. GUE, taken as a whole, has no direct role in an instructors marketing plans. For my part, I plan little, if any, deviation from how I market my other classes. In short I say we offer X, Y & Z and I believe we do it more thoroughly then others. If you are looking for shorter, cheaper and faster classes then I'm not the instructor for you. In fact, in sort of a joking manner I give them Sport Chalet's phone number just to let them know that there are alternatives out there if that is the route they want to go.

In what may be a poor analogy consider if Harvard University were to get into a marketing scheme against the local Community College and promote Harvard as a cost savings alternative?? Harvard is what it is as a result of historically resisting the temptation to sacrafice quality in favor of marketshare and the "Harvard" brand has benefited as a result. GUE has no intention of getting into marketing scheme's to gain market share. We brand ourselves as the alternative, and we continue to provide value, and any compromise will significanlty reduce the value of our brand. No one within GUE will stand by idely and allow that to happen.

It seems to me that the industry has had little incentive over the last decade to risk loosing a potential student, since they truely had a monoply on training. You, essentially had, PADI, NAUI & SSI all chasing the same type of student(s). So the marketing ploys were more along the lines of scheme's and gimmicks. 2 for 1 offer's, silly patches, tattoo's and wall mounted certificates and so on. Very much the Boy Scout business model. The student does something and he is "rewarded" with a merit badge. They squandered an ideal opportunity to distinguish themselves intellectually in favor of marketing scheme's. It was a chess match designed to remain in the status quo, and to keep other's out of the game.. Had you ever considered that in order to gain entrance to the WRSTC that 60% of your classes needed to be recreational based, and [ if I recall correctly] I believe it's something along the lines of having a physical presence in 30 states.. Doesn't that kind of rig the deck against any newer agency?? You can't be a member unless you establish yourself first in 30 states.. Seems kind of backwards to me since after you are big enough to be in 30 states who needs the WRSTC? Anyway, I got slightly off topic, but I hope you see my point.

GUE hopes to repurpose the industry and continue to provide leadership in an industry that is sorely lacking in that regard.

Hope that helps.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom