DIR fin technique questions

[Nemrod]

Hey SBer's,

My last two dives I spent working on DIR style kicking and found that, yes, they do reduce silt kick up significantly. I was able to reduce my silt to zero even when cruising inches from the ground.

I am curious on a few things though:

1) Why do people use the frog kick even when traversing open water well above the bottom? As a former competitive swimmer, frog kick is the most inefficient kick of all three because of the repeated fast acceleration and fast deceleration. Even the DIR style flutter kick with 90* bent knees is much more efficient.

Not just in open water but through kelp forests too. I watched as both of my experienced buddies this weekend frog kick through kelp forests and couldn't help but notice that if for instance kelp snagged on their tanks, the fast acceleration from frog kick would pull them upwards, or otherwise worsen things by pulling tighter. Whereas when I switched to DIR flutter, if something snagged, it would be gradual and I could quickly untangle without as much thrashing around as frog produces.

I can see frog kick's utility when maneuvering in smaller areas but not for longer distance travel or even cruising at depth.

2) Again, as a competitive swimmer, frog kick is really hard on the knees. Those of us who used to race the stroke can attest that long workouts of breaststroke did not leave us with happy knees. While I don't have bad knees yet, I'm expecting some in a couple of years due to rowing injuries. Does DIR actually address this or is it just a HTFU issue for them?

If you do have bad knees, how do deal with frog kick? Or do you just not do it?




In the end, I just don't see the heavy emphasis on DIR frog kick being correct or necessary. Yes, it is a kick that has uses and should be used should the situation call for it. But to use it as a primary mode of movement? It seems impractical.

There is no such thing as "DIR style kicking" as all styles and types of fin propulsion predate DIR/GUE by several decades including the use of frog kicks in caves and wrecks and other silt prone environments.

I too am a competitive swimmer and WSI and agree somewhat with your assessment and I use several combination kicks that are not even discussed in DIR including a bent knee scissor with a flutter or frog in between each cycle which allow me to cover a lot of ground with minimal exertion.

The frog kick you will do with your paddle fins will use a push with the bottom of the fin, not so much the whip effect of the swimmer's frog kick.

I would not take the flutter and the scissor off my list just because it is not "DIR Approved."

Since none of this has actually been measured, O2 uptake/heart rate vs distance/speed vs kick style we can claim efficiency or more efficiency until the cows come home, one person is not another person and I am just as efficient IMO with a flutter kick after a lifetime of lap swimming as I am at a frog kick. If you slow the flutter kick down to the same speed (distance covered) as the typical frog kick, it is IMO, more efficient and until someone actually measures this stuff, there is no fact to back up anything. I have actually done fin swimming tests with a variety of fins and used several kick styles several years ago. I would swim a mile crawl, no fins and then swim a 1/4 mile with a particular fin and kick. I repeated this over and over, always a mile swim up front to even the board, and then swim a 1/4 mile for time at a moderate effort with the various fins and kicks. The frog did not win my swim test, sorry. You can do a similar test for yourself. One thing about long distance athletes is that they have a good sense of gauging their efforts, I figure you fit into that category and can evaluate for yourself.

N

 

[TSandM]

Does everybody really have to pile on the OP for calling them "DIR kicks"? Yes, they are standard kicks for cave divers and some technical divers and yes, they were around long before George used the "Doing it right" phrase. But on the internet, where you will SEE the kicks being talked about and demonstrated on DVDs is in the DIR forums and on GUE and UTD videos -- and I will bet you that you will VERY rarely see anybody's OW instructor demonstrating or even mentioning alternative kicks (at least you won't around here). So it's pretty easy to understand how a novice diver, not familiar with all the political niceties of diving, might associate the kicks with DIR diving. I think she has now heard enough to know that identification is faulty; can we just address the question about the kicks now, please?

 

[Nemrod]

Does everybody really have to pile on the OP for calling them "DIR kicks"? Yes, they are standard kicks for cave divers and some technical divers and yes, they were around long before George used the "Doing it right" phrase. But on the internet, where you will SEE the kicks being talked about and demonstrated on DVDs is in the DIR forums and on GUE and UTD videos -- and I will bet you that you will VERY rarely see anybody's OW instructor demonstrating or even mentioning alternative kicks (at least you won't around here). So it's pretty easy to understand how a novice diver, not familiar with all the political niceties of diving, might associate the kicks with DIR diving. I think she has now heard enough to know that identification is faulty; can we just address the question about the kicks now, please?

I did. If you don't like some of the answers, I am sorry, it is nonetheless my/their response. I know you are accustomed to being the boss, but you are not responsible for other people's answers, just yours.

N

 

[Blackwood]

I have actually done fin swimming tests with a variety of fins and used several kick styles several years ago. I would swim a mile crawl, no fins and then swim a 1/4 mile with a particular fin and kick. I repeated this over and over, always a mile swim up front to even the board, and then swim a 1/4 mile for time at a moderate effort with the various fins and kicks. The frog did not win my swim test, sorry. You can do a similar test for yourself. One thing about long distance athletes is that they have a good sense of gauging their efforts, I figure you fit into that category and can evaluate for yourself.

N

I'm assuming you were swimming for time (given the concept of "win"). I doubt anyone will be surprised that the frog kick isn't the fastest.

Did you happen to measure heart-rate? I have. For the same distance swam, my heart-rate is measurably higher using a scissor kick than a frog kick (which is why I use it for cardio after I can no longer endure dolphin kicking). Under water, I use more gas for the same distance covered.



(interestingly, I can cut about 5% off my 50m forward crawl sprint using a dolphin kick over the 'standard' scissor kick, but I can't keep it up for long, and it's hard to get a good balance going for breathing)

 

[Nemrod]

Hello,

This is really not worth a meltdown on anyone's part, including the boss, I defer to her judgment as always is appropriate.

Yes, I measured heart rate.

No, I tired to swim at the same effort, I used heart rate to establish that lacking any other useful scale available to me and I timed the swims.

No, my fin tests were not a race, I attempted to set a base line by swimming a mile first, at a 25 minute pace and then after an approximate 15 minute break, swim the .25 mile fin test. I did this over a three monthly period. Seems like a lot of work, yes and no, I swim usually five miles a week anyway plus masters practice so I just worked it into my usual workouts.

Was it ironclad, end all arguments, nooooo. Was I satisfied with the results as being conclusive, no, but it did satisfy some of my curiosity and helped me to dispel some myths that I had carried for baggage too long.

Take care, best wishes.
N

 

[boat sju]

Personally, with my Slips I just find it a lot easier to frog kick - and my frog kick is pretty ugly by most of your standards.

 

[Blackwood]

Crazy. Goes to show how different one person's physiology can be from another's, I guess.

I don't swim as much or as fast as you (approx. 3 miles per week, and my fastest mile is 28 minutes), but I have spent some time playing with kicks and noticing the anecdotal effects on my endurance.

With a kickboard, I can swim faster with a balls-to-the-wall scissor than I can with my most intense breast stroke kick, but even if I slow the scissor kick down to match pace with my breast stroke kick I will tire sooner and my heart-rate will sit higher.

I suspect that's at least partially due to technique. With my 'frogish' kick, I can aim almost all the force back, whereas with my scissor kick I'm unable to point much, so a lot of the effort goes to pushing water down and up rather than back. I've watched technique videos showing people like Micheal Phelps kicking, but I can't emulate the leg form very well, particularly when I get fatigued.

 

[scubadobadoo]

I use a frog kick almost 100% of the time and I am not a DIR diver. In fact, the frog kick has been around long before the DIR diver even showed up on the scene. Wreck divers and cave divers have been using the frog kick for a long time. It's an efficient and valuable kick in many situations and is not DIR exclusive. All that said, the DIR divers who have commented on the frog kick here in this thread have done a nice job of explaining it's usefulness. See post #22 among others on the firs page.

I always thought the frog was slow and inefficient until I got really good at it.

Remember your drag in water increases exponentially with speed, so there's really no benefit to going faster with a flutter than what you can achieve with the frog.

However, in heavy current and when I really have to turn up the steam I always go back to the flutter for its effeciency.

Bingo for me as well.

 

[Rhone Man]

Good job of spinning a simple question out into four pages of replies. Even more impressive given that Rainer and Blackwood pretty much said it all within 4 posts of the OP.

Next, the main reason you'll see many DIR divers rely on the frog kick as their standard kick is because it's efficient from an energy perspective. You give a slow kick, then glide, recover, and kick again. It's simply not tiring. You can do this for hours.

My gas lasts much longer when I frog kick than when I flutter (modified or otherwise).

 

[Blackwood]

Good job of spinning a simple question out into four pages of replies. Even more impressive given that Rainer and Blackwood pretty much said it all within 4 posts of the OP.

Marc's Third Law of Scubaboardynamics in action again.