DIR controversy?

[minnesota01r6]

Jasonmh

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1833456&postcount=383

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1833456&postcount=387

Reread my two posts and quote me in context. I'm actually seeking to educate myself, it seems like you're just trying to win the argument.

I didn't say that non-DIR divers endangered my safety.

now who's the one backpedaling?

No one has to quit, or change for that matter.
But if everyone did it might make the water alittle safer for me

I love the way you can say something in one post and completely contradict yourself in the next just to try to win an argument I'm not even trying to have with you.

 

[Jasonmh]

Jasonmh

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1833456&postcount=383

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1833456&postcount=387

Reread my two posts and quote me in context. I'm actually seeking to educate myself, it seems like you're just trying to win the argument.


now who's the one backpedaling?


I love the way you can say something in one post and completely contradict yourself in the next just to try to win an argument I'm not even trying to have with you.

There is no winning or loosing. I just don't understand what you are trying to get at in half your points, and the other half I just don't agree with.

But one thing I do get is another person going on about the positives and negatives of DIR, who has exactly ZERO dir training, coming on here and telling people who have > 0 dir training how it all is. Usually people who are trying to educate themselves ask and listen, not do most of the talking.

 

[minnesota01r6]

1) Ask for clarification if you don't understand what I am saying.

2) I don't see how I am "teling people who have > 0 dir training how it all is" - the only reason I decided to jump into this thread was to point out that it might not be the agency so much as it is the diver that makes DIR "better"

3) I tried asking questions, and I got avoidance instead of responses. Then I tried to clarify my questions, and I got more avoidance. So, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the vagueness of my questions, it was the inability of some fellow divers to realize that things can go wrong and answer a hypothetical "what if" question instead of insisting that it could never happen.

I have to go take a law school exam now. Laters

 

[dherbman]

I have to go take a law school exam now. Laters

Why does this not come as a surprise to me?

You need a coarser sieve.

 

[Jason B]

While not dis'ing DIR (I'm actually rethinking taking the class) I think some of you are a bit overconfident in yourselves.

Funny how the GUE cave 1,2, and 3 class includes 'lost buddy search' if you guys have your eyes on each other at all times like one of you mentioned here. The reality is the **** happens.

 

[Kim]

Funny how the GUE cave 1,2, and 3 class includes 'lost buddy search' if you guys have your eyes on each other at all times like one of you mentioned here. The reality is the **** happens.

Isn't that a contradiction? Presumably if "**** happens" it can also happen to a GUE diver. Then it strikes me it might be best to be prepared for it whatever training you follow. It would be hard to keep your eyes on people in a heavy cave silt-out for instance.
JeffG said it best to my mind -

Plan for the worst...hope for the best

That seems to me to be fairly straightforward and sensible. Would anyone really want to disagree with it?
By the way.....I'm no DIR diver and I don't play one in the swimming pool. Sometimes it does seem to me though that people try to pick holes just for the sake of it. If there was really something that GUE taught that was proved to be unsafe - then sure - I never saw that yet though. There ARE probably sometimes alternatives that others would see as good for particular situations, but then it comes down to pick one. I also think that consistency is important. If an individual keeps doing different things each time the same situation comes up it doesn't strike me as good as repeating the same thing. I used to play classical piano and believe me - if I'd used different fingers every time I played a particular passage, I'd have never have got it learnt!
GUE seems to just extend that principle to the whole team in the name of consistency. Having chosen one safe practice, they let EVERYONE do it so that EVERYONE is on exactly the same page and there should theoretically be no surprises left. Doesn't strike me as a bad goal....or achievement.

 

[Jason B]

Isn't that a contradiction? Presumably if "**** happens" it can also happen to a GUE diver. Then it strikes me it might be best to be prepared for it whatever training you follow. It would be hard to keep your eyes on people in a heavy cave silt-out for instance.
JeffG said it best to my mind -

That seems to me to be fairly straightforward and sensible. Would anyone really want to disagree with it?
By the way.....I'm no DIR diver and I don't play one in the swimming pool. Sometimes it does seem to me though that people try to pick holes just for the sake of it. If there was really something that GUE taught that was proved to be unsafe - then sure - I never saw that yet though. There ARE probably sometimes alternatives that others would see as good for particular situations, but then it comes down to pick one. I also think that consistency is important. If an individual keeps doing different things each time the same situation comes up it doesn't strike me as good as repeating the same thing. I used to play classical piano and believe me - if I'd used different fingers every time I played a particular passage, I'd have never have got it learnt!
GUE seems to just extend that principle to the whole team in the name of consistency. Having chosen one safe practice, they let EVERYONE do it so that EVERYONE is on exactly the same page and there should theoretically be no surprises left. Doesn't strike me as a bad goal....or achievement.

Not sure if all that was directed at me because of my post. If so, you surely missed my point.

 

[lamont]

While not dis'ing DIR (I'm actually rethinking taking the class) I think some of you are a bit overconfident in yourselves.

Funny how the GUE cave 1,2, and 3 class includes 'lost buddy search' if you guys have your eyes on each other at all times like one of you mentioned here. The reality is the **** happens.

The point is that you train so that lost buddy becomes unlikely. You practice gas management so that OOG becomes unlikely. It then becomes really worthless to start with the idea that you've got an OOG DIR diver on their own stumbling across a bunch of divers with octos...

Okay, so I'm locked into a death struggle with a 12-foot long sixgill who is eating my buddy and I'm exhausting my air supply and my buddy is dead, and now I'm swimming upslope with the sixgill chasing after me and I run OOG just as I see the lights from some divers in front of me... Its almost that silly...

Its not that you'll never get separated, its not that you'll never run out of gas, its that you reduce the possibility of those things happening so that the possibility of all of them happening together on a single dive is not worth considering.

 

[SeanQ]

Okay, so I'm locked into a death struggle with a 12-foot long sixgill who is eating my buddy and I'm exhausting my air supply and my buddy is dead, and now I'm swimming upslope with the sixgill chasing after me and I run OOG just as I see the lights from some divers in front of me... Its almost that silly...

If it was a dogfish I might be able to believe it. If it was a sixgill you should be too busy taking pictures.

 

[Jason B]

The point is that you train so that lost buddy becomes unlikely. You practice gas management so that OOG becomes unlikely. It then becomes really worthless to start with the idea that you've got an OOG DIR diver on their own stumbling across a bunch of divers with octos...

Okay, so I'm locked into a death struggle with a 12-foot long sixgill who is eating my buddy and I'm exhausting my air supply and my buddy is dead, and now I'm swimming upslope with the sixgill chasing after me and I run OOG just as I see the lights from some divers in front of me... Its almost that silly...

Its not that you'll never get separated, its not that you'll never run out of gas, its that you reduce the possibility of those things happening so that the possibility of all of them happening together on a single dive is not worth considering.

I agree. I guess I should have read the 38 pages in the middle. Sorry.