DIR controversy?

[Thalassamania]

I agree that placement of a backup reg during OOG for Rec divers is poorly thought out ...

... A DIR diver is OOG and comes up to me and rips my primary out of my mouth. I have both hands full shooting a SMB and my octo is in the "golden triangle" instead of around my neck - what do I do?.

The placement was not thought out it was an 11th hour compromise made at a meeting that resembled this board at it's most contentious.

My DIRigible friends (and I do have some) would just reach their head down, put there lips around their mouthpiece and suck. To paraphrase Lauren Bacall, you do know how to suck don’t you? (To Have and Have Not, 1944)

 

[Thalassamania]

Then the proof is lost and it's your word against mine, but you're well, muich better than I'd have expected. Trust me, not everyone gets to be grasshopper. Grasshopper is someone whom I think, with time and care, will be better than I.

 

[minnesota01r6]

lamont -

I was using the example of PADI and DIR OOG divers to illustrate that there is a clash between any two systems of diving, and actually it might be worse between a DIR diver and any other agency-affiliated diver because all other agencies have you wear a brightly colored backup in the golden triangle. If you were task loaded and a PADI diver came up to you, he may not get your attention right away, and he'll be looking for that bright yellow non-existant reg. I, as a PADI trained diver, could easily answer "it's the reg in my hand that I'm shoving in their face" as well, but that is in a perfect world where you're not already task-loaded. Just assume, for the sake of argument, that you could possibly not notice an OOG diver when answering this question. Also, I could just as easily answer that I would take my buddy's backup reg and not go after some "poor DIR diver's" primary. Also, if you cannot fathom ever being separated from your buddy, then I think you are failing to account for everything that could go wrong on a dive.


EDIT: Bob - if OOG is only the result of a poorly thought out dive (as per the red head) then there would be no need for a secondary because you would just need to have a well thought out dive and then you would never need your secondary (or atleast your buddy wouldn't) - I was merely trying to illustrate that her point was as absurd as mine was.

 

[H2Andy]

Grasshopper is someone whom I think, with time and care, will be better than I.

i see, an under achiever

 

[Jasonmh]

By your reasoning, DIR would then mandate that a diver only have a primary reg with enough hose to go to their mouth, as the long hose would present more of an entanglement hazard than a benefit,
..I think that's what ALL systems of diving are about. Some may be more uniform as far as equipment config goes, but they all have safety in mind. .

According to who? The long has has real benefit, very little entanglement hazard. If it were more of a risk than a benefit it wouldn't be used.

Not the ones I have taken. Most of them were about knowing enough to not get yourself killed, not much thought to "what is the SAFEST way to do this?"

... If something will make us a tiny bit safer, but will be a huge inconvenience or prevent 99.9% of the population from doing it, then it usually is looked at as overkill.

True, if this were the case. But what about something that made you safer AND was far more convienent than the way you were doing things?
Not sure if/where the connection you are trying to make to DIR being inconvienent...
It's not.

 

[grazie42]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
Lets look at a couple of things. A system, and it's application. ok?...snip...
So, there's two things here. There's what you do, and then there's how well you do it. How well you are required to do it during training is indicative of how well you are likely to be able to do it right out of the gate.

This is the famous "bar". I won´t argue that it is set higher in dir-f (though I have no firsthand experience of it). But since dirf is PROGRESSION from OW, that makes perfect sense to me. STILL apples & oranges.

Based only on the things I´ve read about dirf, it seems very similar to my cavern class (IANTD) which is also a "rec class". I think most cavern divers would do ok in a comparison with "post dirférs" (the prereqs are about the same). Definitively if you compare caverndivers with the same number of dives (after the course) as dirf´er who´ve passed the class...

Whether we look at buoyancy control, finning technique, buddy procedures, gas management, emergency procedures...you pick it, GUE is doing it far better than most. There really isn't even much of a comparison and it's not even close.

Because the comparison is unfair...
If you look at any dir-diver and compare him to the avg. recdiver he´ll have (I believe):
-More time with an instructor
-Been taught different skills
-Spent more resources on his diving
-Dives more and more often
-Drills way more
-Has a completely different "mindset" when it comes to his/hers approach to diving

You argue (if I understand correctly) that this is better and because of DIR.
I agree that it is better but believe it is because of the diver. Which, I believe, is why:

Once you move beyond a recreational diving setting...say to the florida caves, you'll see lots of divers using all sorts of different equipment configurations and procedures including solo and sidemount and they can all control their position in the water very precisely and effectively use whatever system they are using...snip

It is the diver, not the system...any diver who has the caracteristics of a "dir-diver" will posses fairly equal skills...you get out what you put in...

You think EVERYONE should be required to "put more in" from the start. The "mainstream agencies " disagree...I haven´t made up my mind yet...

 

[minnesota01r6]

DIR is inconvenient in that it would cost millions to convert all the gear owned (privately and rental) and also retrain everyone on how to use it. Again, remember that DIR is much more than equipment.

So, with 41 instructors, how long will it take to retrain the entire diving world to DIR?

How much safer would DIR make someone who is diving to 60fsw in open water? How many deaths a year do you predict it would prevent?

How many people would quit diving or never start based on the $1,000 cost of class (based on OW + DIR-F)

I'll admit the price of aluminum would sure go down! maybe I could get a can of pop for less than $.75

 

[TheRedHead]

They even taught me that in my crappy 3 day wonder course in the USVI. By your reasoning, DIR would then mandate that a diver only have a primary reg with enough hose to go to their mouth, as the long hose would present more of an entanglement hazard than a benefit, and even a short hose backup reg would not be needed.

I'm not GUE-trained and haven't adopted all the systems of DIR. I don't think there is an excuse to run out of air for any reason other than an equipment malfunction. If you have redundant systems, you are not going to run out of air. Those systems may include a buddy nearby (DIR and every other agency), or a redundant supply of air such as doubles and/or deco bottles (TDI and solo divers). Spending extra minutes trying to catch a lobster is no excuse for OOG. Not paying attention to your gauge is no excuse for OOG. Not knowing how much gas you need for a dive before you backroll is a real problem - something that was never addressed to my satisfaction even in my Deep Diver Specialty course. Other than GUE, it is not addressed until you take a technical class.

People do run out of air on wrecks, deep dives and sometimes just shallow easy dives. They need to learn how to not do it. That's all I am saying.

 

[Hank49]

DIR is inconvenient in that it would cost millions to convert all the gear owned (privately and rental) and also retrain everyone on how to use it. Again, remember that DIR is much more than equipment.

It wouldn't be inconvenient for companies that sell bp/wings and long hoses...

 

[dherbman]

DIR is inconvenient in that it would cost millions to convert all the gear owned (privately and rental) and also retrain everyone on how to use it. Again, remember that DIR is much more than equipment.

Perhaps if it were adopted as a primary standard, rather than advanced training, cost would not be an issue. It takes no more training to use a HOG rig than a REC rig. It takes as much training to reach an adequate level of proficiency on either rig, but the end result is very different.

So, with 41 instructors, how long will it take to retrain the entire diving world to DIR?

Think of rabbits breeding. It wouldn't take long.