DIR controversy?

[H2Andy]

We should be taught how NOT to run out of gas in the first place.

agreed.

and also be prepared for when it does happen

:14:

 

[JeffG]

here I am trying to have a DIR discussion in the middle of a carl marx thread

You were talking about DIR? Wow...didn't know.

 

[Thalassamania]

Time stamps don't lie, a minute late and a dollar short, but who's counting?

 

[lamont]

I agree that placement of a backup reg during OOG for Rec divers is poorly thought out. This is a different argument from the one mike presented that most rec divers have poor bouyancy, fin technique, and gas management.

However - look at the flip side: a PADI trained diver is OOG and comes up to you franticly looking for your "bright yellow octo" - where is it?

its the reg in my hand that i'm shoving in their face. they'll figure it out pretty quick...

... A DIR diver is OOG

...unlikely to happen. definitely unlikely to find them not ripping the primary from their buddies mouth and going after some poor PADI diver...

and comes up to me and rips my primary out of my mouth. I have both hands full shooting a SMB and my octo is in the "golden triangle" instead of around my neck - what do I do?

You see, the arguments you make against the rec community can be made against DIR as well. I agree that there should be more uniformity, but someone could argue that PADI should make the uniform standard instead of GUE. (maybe it would be octo on the weight belt or something? - lol)

Don't get me wrong - I like the hog setup, and probably will use it when I buy my own equipment (I will even take the fundies if I have the funds to do so). Training and equipment are 2 separate arguments. The hog setup has been around a long time, but hasn't caught on in the rec diving community. It is a very well thought out and uniform system, but it has its downsides for a diver who is not willing to spend hours investing in air drills and the like.

Honestly, I really doubt it.

I had about zero experience back when I first had my long hose kicked out of my mouth underwater and found it beneficial to immediately go to the backup under my chin. If you do wind up using a long hose, you should see how easy it really is to go to the backup there, and how its much better than a dangly octo...

I did post-BOW dive #1 with a long hose and hefty amount of cluelessness. I've lived the newbie diver with a long hose dream. Its not such a big deal.

I also did an OOA ascent on around dive #20 when my air was mostly turned off and I couldn't breathe off my reg at 60 fsw. It wasn't pretty, it would have undergone substantial amount of criticism in a DIRF video review, but it got the job done.

Training will undoubtedly make you a better diver because it makes you conscious of safety & proper technique no matter if it is DIR training or TDI.

 

[TSandM]

Well, it is sometimes amusing that the people who study the most about gas management and who do those most meticulous pre-dive planning and checks also spend the most time practicing out of air drills . . . But equipment doesn't always work as it should, even when well cared-for, and it IS awfully handy when air-sharing procedures are second nature. BTDT.

 

[JeffG]

Well, it is sometimes amusing that the people who study the most about gas management and who do those most meticulous pre-dive planning and checks also spend the most time practicing out of air drills . . . But equipment doesn't always work as it should, even when well cared-for, and it IS awfully handy when air-sharing procedures are second nature. BTDT.

Plan for the worst...hope for the best.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

MikeFerrara

Do you think your observations have anything to do with the divers themselves? The DIR diver by definition has more training and experience than a basic OW certified diver has. The DIR diver has chosen to make about a $400 investment above and beyond OW certification. This does not include all the gear they had to buy.

Here's my take on that ... and Lynne touched on it pretty well already.

Yes, it is the divers themselves ... those who gravitate toward the DIR system do so because they are, by nature, motivated to perform whatever they do to a high level. The DIR approach simply gives them a means to achieve at a level they are already inclined to achieve to. Good divers aren't exclusive to DIR ... there are plenty of other, non-DIR divers who are excellent divers ... DIR simply offers a systematic approach for those who want to put in the effort to improve their skills beyond what is "required".

As Lynne said, DIR-F ... per se ... does not make someone a better diver. It only provides you with the tools to go out and make yourself a better diver. It shows you where you are today, and what you need to do to take your skills to a higher level. And it gives you methods to get there. But you still have to get out and practice ... there's no way around that. Your instructor isn't going to make you a good diver ... only you can do that.

So it's effort and determination that makes these people better divers ... the gear and the systematic approach are nothing more than tools in a toolbox. Not the only ones out there ... but a set that makes a lot of sense to a lot of people.

One of the biggest differences between the DIR approach to training and that used by the typical recreational instructor is that in DIR they will show you a "bar" ... a standard skill set to which you need to achieve. If it looks like you're going to reach that bar too easily, they'll raise it. The end goal isn't measured, specifically, in how well you perform a skill ... it's measured against what you already know, and how much you are capable of improving. There's no "minimum requirement" that, if reached, means you get to breeze through the class. No matter how good you are, your instructor will task you to get better.

That's what sets the training apart ... at least, that's how it's been with the classes and workshops I've been involved with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[minnesota01r6]

I think OOG is the result of a poorly thought out dive. We should be taught how NOT to run out of gas in the first place.

They even taught me that in my crappy 3 day wonder course in the USVI. By your reasoning, DIR would then mandate that a diver only have a primary reg with enough hose to go to their mouth, as the long hose would present more of an entanglement hazard than a benefit, and even a short hose backup reg would not be needed. OOG happens for a variety of reasons, not just poor planning. 1st or 2nd stage malfunctions, entanglements, burst discs, cut or cracked hoses. As H2Andy said, you need to be prepared for it if it does happen, and I think that's what ALL systems of diving are about. Some may be more uniform as far as equipment config goes, but they all have safety in mind.

The bottom line is I think rec agencies have less stringent controls because of the less-risky environment in which you are expected to dive. Again, I'll use cars as an example because it's something I'm familiar with: We don't all drive around in 5-point restraints with a HANS device attached to our helmets to go to the grocery store. Why? because driving to the grocery store is inherently less dangerous than doing 180mph around laguna seca. We use the law of diminishing returns whether we like it or not. If something will make us a tiny bit safer, but will be a huge inconvenience or prevent 99.9% of the population from doing it, then it usually is looked at as overkill.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By your reasoning, DIR would then mandate that a diver only have a primary reg with enough hose to go to their mouth, as the long hose would present more of an entanglement hazard than a benefit

Care to explain how you arrived at this conclusion?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[H2Andy]

Time stamps don't lie, a minute late and a dollar short, but who's counting?

apparently you

go back, re-read what i said, and try to figure it out

(hint: when you edit a post shortly after posting, it does not alter the time stamp)