DIR controversy?

[Thalassamania]

The only real DIR restriction about drysuits is against fleece and against neoprene drysuits because they promote dynamic instability, and in favor of proper fit and range of motion. The "cave cut TLS350" crowd (including GI3) is not representative of GUEs teachings and if that doesn't get the job done for you, then you can use something else.

Either no one here has a sense of humor or I was much too subtle. I suspect the latter.

I find this one a bit puzzling. I don't wear fins on entry/exit from the surf zone since that seems to promote tripping and cracking your head open -- and that has nothing to do with DIR, that's just how everyone around here dives -- although my PADI class taught entries with fins on.

Walk backward. When waist deep jump onto your surf mat, go like hell through the break. Don’t have a surf mat? That’s a much a part of being a Berkeley diver as a can light is a part of being a DIR diver.

And if you need to kick so hard that you think you need splitfins it seems like that dive would be better done as a drift dive or using a scooter. The only exception to this kind of thing would be PSD rescue diving in moving water, in which case its mission criticial that you're optimizing for being able to move as fast as possible (and hopefully you're training for cardiovascular fitness, and you know the risks you're getting into).

Don’t know quite what to use the splits for yet.

Not sure why you're optimizing for mouthpieces, but the only thing DIR would have to say is not to mess up donation of the long hose, so avoid the custom ones that only fit your mouth...

I have a custom one (an Oceanic) that is still quite usable by another diver, I find that one most comfortable for long dives (I’ve a tough of TMJ), but I don’t use in when teaching because there are others that are better for OOA drills and I rarely have the reg in my mouth for a long continuous stretch.

Around here its almost always dark. Diving in 100 foot viz in broad daylight across shallow reefs, can lights aren't so useful, so leave 'em on the shore. Its perfectly DIR to do so, just tuck the long hose into your waistbelt so it doesn't flop around. I dove that way for dozens of dives before I bought a can light. Occasionally I do dives where the canlight doesn't help at all, but I leave it in place because I don't want to mess with gear and want to use it for hose routing, but I'm consciously making that choice. Generally its not a big deal.

I just don’t think I’d carry a piece of gear that I have no plan on using, that’s my conscious choice.

So, really, I don't see any way that DIR restricts gear config in any of the ways that you mentioned, other than the fin choice. Dive with whatever exposure gear you like/need, just keep in mind fit and dynamic instability. Dive with or without lights. Pick whatever mouthpiece you want provided that you can still donate it. Whats the big deal?

I’m still learning. I hope you now see that the suit thing was a sarcastic aside visa vie the fin restrictions, which make no sense at all to me, at least for the way in which I dive.

 

[djanni]

I've dived Cozumel 8 times and never seen a DIR diver. Who did you dive with? I'd love to dive with some. I've never been on a boat in Cozumel with another diver in a BP/w. I'm not GUE-trained, BTW. Sometimes, I even dive in split fins.

Gee, do you need to imply I not telling the truth??? I'll fill you in on 2 different experiences. Keep in mind we've only been diving 5 years and other than a couple of long wkends to Florida a year we only get to dive about 2 weeks a year.

Cozumel: We've been there twice. On one of those occations I took a DSS singles rig with me and dived it 18 times. We dived with Blue-XT-Sea. Christi joined us a couple of days and Pedro was out DM. While at the dock one morning I saw someone carring their bp/w rig to a boat. So although seldom seen, they do show up in Cozumel.

Our other trip to Cozumel (first time about 2003) we went with Living Underwater. Choose them off the internet. Didn't now this board at the time. My wife and I bought our gear the prior year had about 30 dives on it so it looked brand new. There were 6 divers and two were obviously experienced old salty dogs. They took their HID lights with them on every dive. So the first morning we're gearing up and I notice they're talking to each other and glancing over at our fins. We both use the yellow Atomic Splits. I guess they were sparkeling in the morning light or something. I noticed they are not wearing splits-some big ole black boring looking things (grin). Being sociable I said "these are Atomic's." One replied, we know we just hope there's not a strong current down there. "Why do you say that I querried?" Oh nothing they said we're sure you'll be fine, we'll keep an eye on you. Oh, thanks I said. Oddly enough we were the only ones aboard in splits so later I asked the DM what they meant by that. He said don't concern yourself with them I'm getting a pair of splits pretty soon myself. They just think they know everything. Didn't you hear them telling me what the dive plan was going to be. They're DIR divers. Prior to that I didn't know the term DIR.

Saba: This time I knew the term DIR and these people were.... give me a minute and the right word will come to mind. Two men and a woman. On about day 3 we were having dinner together one night and here comes the DIR stuff. At first it was interesting but quickly got boring. The lady in the group started telling my wife why we would be better and safer divers if we would follow some of their advice; i.e., always pass the primary in an OOA situation. If you pass the primary you know it works no matter which bottle (gee, all this time I thought I only had one back there) your on. It will also give the other person more confidence because they see you are breathing from it. Then if you tie off your octo, you know, you've seem us doing it, and suspend it from around your neck then it's always right there in easy reach. You know right were it is and you don't have to go search for it. It's possible that while your searching the person with the OOA experience panics and slashes at you trying to get at your primary. Back at the room that night my wife said did you hear what that woman was telling me? Why didn't you come to my rescue?

 

[lamont]

I’m still learning. I hope you now see that the suit thing was a sarcastic aside

Yeah, i'm typically pretty good with scarcasm, but I missed that one.

visa vie the fin restrictions, which make no sense at all to me, at least for the way in which I dive.

Well, really, if you need a particular fin to get across the surf zone safely then that's the right one for the job.

Around here if the surf is too big we just option #1 the dive. I did this on sunday actually. We have the luxury of being inside of puget sound where a) the surf is usually not a huge problem because it isn't actually open ocean and b) there's always somewhere else to dive in the lee of the wind. If the entry is consistantly problematic at a divesite you can also always just use a boat, here. It sounds like you've got different conditions where you may care a lot more about that surf entry than you do about the ability to back-kick.

Same basically goes for river diving. I wouldn't do that, personally. I assume you understand the risks and are in good shape. Obviously you're going to need to optimize for thrust on those, and not for your back-kick.

That kind of diving seems like edge cases to me. It does invalidate the "DIR gear config is good for every kind of diving" mantra, but I've never bought that one. PSD diving and commercial diving are the two obvious different styles which aren't DIR. I know some PSD groups have been successful in borrowing from DIR to their advantage, but obviously if you're in contaminated waters you're going to need a FFM which immediately pooches up the long hose a bit -- add more complicated elements to the mission and DIR probably becomes reasonably useless. Commercial diving where your buddy is at the top of the umbilical is another kind of diving which is just about incompatible with DIR -- everything about the gear is different. That isn't to say it isn't an excellent system, though, and has a very high safety record -- you'll even find people who dive DIR recreationally/technically and who also dive the Really Long Hose for commercial/PSD diving -- eg. snowbear.

So, what you've found are the edges of where DIR diving isn't the answer to everything.

 

[*Floater*]

Again I must apologize for not turning up the sarcasm gain so that it was clear.

For river diving, or if I need to dive a wicked shore break whenever it is important to accelerate fast, move fast over a short distance and not care about the bottom ... can't beat duckfeet (as long as your legs are ready for it<G>)

My old FaraFins (basically a Jetfin with spring straps) are just the ticket for a situation that calls for fine maneuvering over a silty bottom.

For a long swim through a spread out set of rolling breakers I like QuatroPros with Farafin spring straps.

Cressi Rondine Garas for freediving.

I'm finding that I like the Idea3s for long slow swims and when I have to push something,

I haven't quite figured out what to do with the split fins and the forcefins yet, but I've only used on an twenty or thirty dives each, any advise for these.

These are all personal feelings and likely have more to do with the different ways in which I kick each fin, I have friends with different preferences for the same models.

Split fins and force fins seem to be frowned upon in DIR circles, and everyone seems to use either jets or turtles, but the actual DIR fin is just one that's moderately stiff, has a short, broad blade and either a spring strap or a regular strap with the ends taped away so they don't get entangled, and no plastic buckles.

But you may have a valid point in that JJ writes "the best practice for divers is to use the same gear all the time" (p. 87 under fins) and I'm not sure I'd agree with that myself. OTOH, I'm still putting together my first set of gear (well, I sold those split fins) so I sort of prefer not needing many different for sets different situations. Also, these are mostly just recommendations, the important thing is that your gear doesn't expose your team to any unnecessary hazards or other problems.

 

[H2Andy]

Well, really, if you need a particular fin to get across the surf
zone safely then that's the right one for the job.

i wonder, can a set of fins make such a difference in getting across the
surf zone?

i can see fins making a difference in delicate, control work, but i don't think
i could tell the difference between, say, Jets and Quattros when paddling
across the surf

JJ writes "the best practice for divers is to use the same gear all the time" (p. 87 under fins) and I'm not sure I'd agree with that myself

in my diving, i agree with JJ. diving with the same stuff all the time makes me
enormously confortable in the water. i don't have any need to change stuff.

when would you change stuff?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Gee, do you need to imply I not telling the truth??? I'll fill you in on 2 different experiences. Keep in mind we've only been diving 5 years and other than a couple of long wkends to Florida a year we only get to dive about 2 weeks a year.

Cozumel: We've been there twice. On one of those occations I took a DSS singles rig with me and dived it 18 times. We dived with Blue-XT-Sea. Christi joined us a couple of days and Pedro was out DM. While at the dock one morning I saw someone carring their bp/w rig to a boat. So although seldom seen, they do show up in Cozumel.

Our other trip to Cozumel (first time about 2003) we went with Living Underwater. Choose them off the internet. Didn't now this board at the time. My wife and I bought our gear the prior year had about 30 dives on it so it looked brand new. There were 6 divers and two were obviously experienced old salty dogs. They took their HID lights with them on every dive. So the first morning we're gearing up and I notice they're talking to each other and glancing over at our fins. We both use the yellow Atomic Splits. I guess they were sparkeling in the morning light or something. I noticed they are not wearing splits-some big ole black boring looking things (grin). Being sociable I said "these are Atomic's." One replied, we know we just hope there's not a strong current down there. "Why do you say that I querried?" Oh nothing they said we're sure you'll be fine, we'll keep an eye on you. Oh, thanks I said. Oddly enough we were the only ones aboard in splits so later I asked the DM what they meant by that. He said don't concern yourself with them I'm getting a pair of splits pretty soon myself. They just think they know everything. Didn't you hear them telling me what the dive plan was going to be. They're DIR divers. Prior to that I didn't know the term DIR.

Saba: This time I knew the term DIR and these people were.... give me a minute and the right word will come to mind. Two men and a woman. On about day 3 we were having dinner together one night and here comes the DIR stuff. At first it was interesting but quickly got boring. The lady in the group started telling my wife why we would be better and safer divers if we would follow some of their advice; i.e., always pass the primary in an OOA situation. If you pass the primary you know it works no matter which bottle (gee, all this time I thought I only had one back there) your on. It will also give the other person more confidence because they see you are breathing from it. Then if you tie off your octo, you know, you've seem us doing it, and suspend it from around your neck then it's always right there in easy reach. You know right were it is and you don't have to go search for it. It's possible that while your searching the person with the OOA experience panics and slashes at you trying to get at your primary. Back at the room that night my wife said did you hear what that woman was telling me? Why didn't you come to my rescue?

... and so you take the actions of a couple of strangers and apply them to an entire class of people ... based on what?

If we applied that logic to other aspects of life, we'd be going around hating everybody ... because no matter what you do or how you choose to do it, you will be sharing your choices with a few jerky people.

Why not try judging people based on how they treat you ... rather than on how someone else did?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But you may have a valid point in that JJ writes "the best practice for divers is to use the same gear all the time" (p. 87 under fins) and I'm not sure I'd agree with that myself.

On the other hand ... it imposes certain problems when you're on a boat with 10 or 11 other DIR divers. If you should choose to go that route, get yourself a paint pen.

One of my dive buddies recently had his fins go on a dive to about 320 fsw ... on someone else's feet ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dherbman]

i wonder, can a set of fins make such a difference in getting across the
surf zone?

i can see fins making a difference in delicate, control work, but i don't think
i could tell the difference between, say, Jets and Quattros when paddling
across the surf

Not sure about surf, but of the five divers that started out on the east side of the river a couple weeks back, I was the only one that made it across. In fact, I made it across, came back to check on the other divers and then returned to the west side.

Maybe it wasn't the fins, but they seemed to think it was.

 

[TheRedHead]

Gee, do you need to imply I not telling the truth??? I'll fill you in on 2 different experiences. Keep in mind we've only been diving 5 years and other than a couple of long wkends to Florida a year we only get to dive about 2 weeks a year.

Didn't imply anything. I'm serious in that I would like to dive with some DIR people at some point and I go to Coz a lot. Tried to book dives with Jeremy once but he was at DEMA. Never dived with Christi, mostly because my buddy likes to dive 120s. The rudest people I dove with in Coz were a pair of photogs with $50,000 or so worth of camera equipment. It was like "Please get out of my way so I can get the best shot."

One of the best divers I know, who happens to be an Instructor in Coz, dives Force Fins (no whiskers).

I think people who denigrate you for any reason feel insecure about themselves.

 

[Thalassamania]

If you'd be so good as to look at my earlier post you'll see that we were looking to reach the same situation, but as a matter of personal choice rather than inscribed on a tablet. There's nothing inherently wrong with AIR-11s is there? Pyle used them on deep reef dives. There's nothing inherently wrong with hanging a Mares Octo on a power inflator set up is there? Sharkey and Pyle describe that in their AAUS paper. The long hose is the meeting point of the minds, not the location of the secondary ... that strikes me as little more than a matter of opinion.