Exactly. Thats what many call "bend and treat" only sometimes the treatment isn't enough. LOL
If you compare that to the way we would plan that dive the ascent schedule would be very different.
DIR and computers
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Exactly. Thats what many call "bend and treat" only sometimes the treatment isn't enough. LOL
If you compare that to the way we would plan that dive the ascent schedule would be very different.
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Uncle Pug once bubbled...
...
1. Yes you are... you are missing what is being said about there being something other than either tables or computers. Now it may be intentional on your part... but that is something else altogether
...
Some of us are trying very hard to understand this. But we keep getting just part of the story. I can't thow away my tables or my computer 'til I get the whole picture. I'm sure DIR has got this down and that their methods work. I just haven't found ALL of the info yet. I was extremely dissapointed that this topic was not covered well in the DIRF book. Yah...the Baker's Dozen was listed, but an alternative was not discussed. I thought that very odd. I mean if DIR has a method other than using tables or a computer why isn't it in their DIRF book. Coorperate lawyers, maybe.
I know...take a class.
It's in the plan. But for now I would just like to hear more about it!
Oh...ya...I guess I got hit by one of those shoes earlier. Not a problem. But I have noticed that you seem to get a little ruffled lately. I'm a little worried... that's not your style Pug. I want the old Pug back.
SA
BTW... this topic isn't new to SB either. I am surprised that Mike spilled so many beans.
And Stephen... I wasn't throwing shoes... I just dropped a couple to see who would come along and try them on.
If it doesn't fit... don't wear it.
As for why this isn't in the book... like Mike said, the DIR approach is holistic... and if you just take bits and pieces you could end up in trouble.
Fact is... this isn't taught in all DIRf's either... it just depends on the instructor.
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Well, I don't get it Pug.
I understand that the DIR approach is holistic. All the more reason for EVERYTHING to be in the book. All the more reason for ALL DIR instructors to teach the same stuff...the whole concept of DIR...not just part of it.
SA
I understand that the DIR approach is holistic. All the more reason for EVERYTHING to be in the book. All the more reason for ALL DIR instructors to teach the same stuff...the whole concept of DIR...not just part of it.
SA
Stephen,
In all honesty part of my reluctance to go any further is that some of these ideologies and concepts need to be explained in the context of totality, I'm uncomfortable doing that over the internet. Moreover, from a purely pragmatic business perspective as well, I think I often give away way more information then most instructors. I'm in the fortunate position that I teach because it's a passion and the money is less important, but I need to be fair to my colleagues that rely on teaching as their primary source of revenue, so it wouldn't be fair to simply give away everything..
Now that being said, I try to help as much as I can, but at the end of the day you simply can't replace the academic aspect of the class by gleaning bits and pieces over the internet because ultimately something will get missed and someone could get hurt..
As for why more detail wasn't in the book I suspect it's because this is a concept that we prefer to teach in detail coupled with ascent rate profiles, gas management strategies and an overall discussion of decompression theory. I like to think that an instructor needs to go way above that which is in the book and I don't believe that an instructor that simply reads what is in the book is providing adequate value to his students..
Sorry if I didn't go far enough but at some point I'm just uncomfortable discussing advanced decompression techniques on a forum where new divers may only understand part of the picture.. Besides, how else would I get travel the country and meet all these great divers ;-)
Later
Like experience for example.
You need to do the dives to learn the things that are taught in the water.
DSJ
Guest
Ok, so what I'm hearing is that there is a much better way to plan dives than with either the standard tables or a computer, and it would nice if other agencies other than GUE taught it to OW divers. But I'm also hearing that it's complicated enough that you can only get it in a DIR-F class and not a book, and not even all DIR-F classes at that. If it's that complicated/intertwined with other considerations is it reasonable to expect PADI, SSI, or NAUI to teach it in OW? AOW?
Given that only a small percentage of folks will ever take DIR-F, (even fewer now given that it's a cert course with equipment requirments) that leaves the majority of OW divers out in the cold.
I'm in this discussion as a recreational diver (no deco) trying to understand more about the model (computer or table) that I'm using, it seems that I don't get to do that unless I take a tech class.
DIR-F is in my personal plans, but what can the great massess of OW divers do to learn more and improve their saftey? What would the other agencies have to do to be able to present your methods? At what level would you suggest they introduce it?
David
Given that only a small percentage of folks will ever take DIR-F, (even fewer now given that it's a cert course with equipment requirments) that leaves the majority of OW divers out in the cold.
I'm in this discussion as a recreational diver (no deco) trying to understand more about the model (computer or table) that I'm using, it seems that I don't get to do that unless I take a tech class.
DIR-F is in my personal plans, but what can the great massess of OW divers do to learn more and improve their saftey? What would the other agencies have to do to be able to present your methods? At what level would you suggest they introduce it?
David
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I can certainly respect where you're coming from and I look forward to learning these things in class.
Unfortunately, this whole discussion has become pointless. You can say that DIR offers a better approach but we can not talk about it...or we can only talk about parts of it.
One might be convinced that for a single dive there might be a better alternative to using a table or computer. But without the discussion going further we are left with only your word that this method can be applied to repetitive and multi-day diving.
I believe you. You're probably right. But we can't expect anyone else to believe that the DIR approach is better than tables or computers because we can't tell them how it works for everyday dives. Their only choice is to continue to dive as they were taught...or go take a DIRF and hope that the instructor will cover this. And that's a gamble...'cause it ain't in the book.
Until DIR is ready to share these things most folks will have a hard time believin' that they don't need their tables or computers.
SA
Unfortunately, this whole discussion has become pointless. You can say that DIR offers a better approach but we can not talk about it...or we can only talk about parts of it.
One might be convinced that for a single dive there might be a better alternative to using a table or computer. But without the discussion going further we are left with only your word that this method can be applied to repetitive and multi-day diving.
I believe you. You're probably right. But we can't expect anyone else to believe that the DIR approach is better than tables or computers because we can't tell them how it works for everyday dives. Their only choice is to continue to dive as they were taught...or go take a DIRF and hope that the instructor will cover this. And that's a gamble...'cause it ain't in the book.
Until DIR is ready to share these things most folks will have a hard time believin' that they don't need their tables or computers.
SA
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Agreed.
Yet, when I take a course in P. Chem. I expext the text to cover in detail P. Chem.
I'm dyin' to do "the dives", Pug. But right now we're talkin' about tossin' away the old computer and tables for some "other method" of doing recreational dives.
I guess all that I can say now is, " yep, there might be a better way. But until I go somewhere for a GUE class I'm stuck with usin' my tables or computer."
...and it would suck to fly to Seattle for a DIRF and not have that covered. I couldn't even look it up in the book when I got home!
SA
ERP
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This is a lot of what's covered in the lecture portion of the Rec Triox course. It all boils down to a few basic rules of thumb and it isn't complicated.
However the lectures covered a lot of the how to do it long hand and why the rules of thumb work. If you know why they work you understand when they don't.
However the lectures covered a lot of the how to do it long hand and why the rules of thumb work. If you know why they work you understand when they don't.
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