DIR and computers

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

This has been an enjoyable thread so far. I see the sarcasm that precedes flame wars starting.

I think that even among the computer users, the consensus that I see is to use the computer but moderate it with the computer between your ears. It wasn't that long ago that some divers were bent trusting their computers when the computers had a software glitch that was figuring air dives on an algorithm that was using nitrox numbers. If these divers had second guessed their computers based on common sense, they might now be bent now. Dive Rite won't put "Time to Fly" on their computers. Why? Because 24 hrs is a pretty basic calculation and a diver should be about to handle it without a computer "clearing them to fly".
 
The problem was the reverse, after a nitrox dive the computer figured the surface interval as being still on nitrox not air. the computer i use has a similar ( but not as dangerous fault), when diving at altitude it doesn't know i've finished the dive and gone home - it thinks i'm still diving ( @ 4 ft!!). gota pull the batts to reset the thing. easy enough to fix the program - after all how many divers do a dive @ 3 ft for an hour?

while the "time to fly" Display is a not nessesary it's available because of the off gassing calculations the computer Must make till all compartments wash out - it only takes a bit in the display to add the icon, why not give as much info as it can can, but only when its needed.

diverbrian once bubbled...

It wasn't that long ago that some divers were bent trusting their computers when the computers had a software glitch that was figuring air dives on an algorithm that was using nitrox numbers.
 
I was trying to make a point too quickly, and didn't look back at that article. Still, this is a problem that caused divers NOT using their heads as a check to get bent.

Apparently, you have found a solution. This is the type of second guessing (instead of blind faith in a computer) that I was referring to.
 
David Evans once bubbled...


Custer:

First, I assure you that I have a very deep understanding of how both the Stinger and the Vyper work, along with quite a few other models (I have to, as I work in the dive industry as an instructor). I understand the different user settings, and levels of coservativism, and the differences in Suunto's "RGBM" and Weinke's "real" RGBM. I also know a fair amount about Haldane and Buhlman's models. You would do well not to assume so much about people you don't know.

You would also do well, in my opinion, to try to refute my statements (which are absolutely accurate) rather than try to discredit me.

I can't really tell what you are advocating here - on the one hand, you seem to be advocating using a computer as a reliable dive planning tool. At the same time, you seem to be advocating using your brain to moderate what the computer is telling you.

Which is it?

Either you trust the computer, or you don't.

Either the computer is an accurate dive planning tool, or it's a guideline.

Which is it?

If the computer is an accurate planning tool, then I encourage you to explain to me why I need to not fly for 12 hours after spending 20 minutes at the bottom of a 12 foot deep pool.

If the computer is just a guideline, then I encourage you to explain how can I possibly trust it to calculate my decompression.

Please, Custer, oh, wise one in the way of computers, explain this to me.

Is my computer an absolutely accurate tool for dive planning?

Or is it merely a guideline that I should use, but not totally trust?

If I can't totally trust it, then what lesson(s) should I learn from that with regard to planning and executing my dives?

And if I can't totally trust my computer, what can I carry with me on my dives that I can totally trust?

Simple one word answer : Default.

Already gave it to you, to refute your statements.

Give a whistle if I need to explain further, or, if there's a single question you just asked, that with all your computer familiarity, you don't already have an answer to.

"I can't really tell what you are advocating here - on the one hand, you seem to be advocating using a computer as a reliable dive planning tool. At the same time, you seem to be advocating using your brain to moderate what the computer is telling you."

Um...yes.

Excellent.
 
diverbrian once bubbled...
It wasn't that long ago that some divers were bent trusting their computers when the computers had a software glitch that was figuring air dives on an algorithm that was using nitrox numbers. If these divers had second guessed their computers based on common sense, they might not be bent now.

You defined it, software glitch.

Like a recalled regulator, or BC malfunction.

Can you name a decompression method, especially Navy tables, on which

A) divers have not already been bent, and

B) can guarentee without any doubt that divers won't get bent?

Fix us up, you'll revolutionize the industry, and be a millionaire.
 
diverbrian once bubbled...
I will back him up with at least one agency. The SSI Deep diving and DiveCon manuals address the lack of safety in sawtooth profiles EVEN WITH A COMPUTER.

The IANTD Tech Diver's Encyclopedia doesn't address the issue directly but has a similar (albiet more wordy) take on decompression theory. Due to the fact that tissue loading is not linear, the ideal dive profile from from a DCI prevention standpoint is do the deepest dive first in the day and the deepest portion of the dive first to allow for more off gassing in the shallower "end" portion of the dive.


Let's see your cite, with a specific reference to NDL diving.

Manual and paragraph number.

As far as I knew, we were discussing one dive, and not a series.

And even recent conventional wisdom calls that into question.

While it's certainly a concern for your methods, it's not a concern for those of us utilizing commonly available modern technology.

As far as your opinion of common sense goes, you're welcome to it, even if it doesn't reflect the diving practices of most divers.

Your IANTD reference isn't even ballpark.

No one is advocating skipping a slow ascent or safety stop.
 
James connell once bubbled...


the ONLY intellegent post to date on this thread - i'm not suprized.

I actually think what Michael is saying makes some sense in DIR context. Don't forget that DIR comes out of the the cave-diving scene where there is a lot of deco diving going on along pretty odd looking curves (you can't always choose) and a real need for redundancy (you know, 2 is 1 and 1 is none and all that). To date there just haven't been any computers that deco-out like the WKPP and others like to or have to do it so using a technique like this makes some sense. It leaves open options for intuition and flexibility in the deco schedule. To apply it to recreational diving is an interesting side-bar but not really relevant considering the level of computer technology currently available to us.

The argument that it saves money is B.S. if you ask me. Sure a real DIR diver would need to fork out for 2 computers but if it were expensive and "better" every DIR diver would have them. Most of the WKPP hard-core probably spend more money on gear than I spent on my house so this argument doesn't wash with me.

I'd venture a guess that as computers get sophisticated enough to meet the needs of the hard-care technical crowd that using these (in fact quite old) techniques like the 120 rule will succumb to what, in the future, is bound to be a better way; just the same way that we recreational slobs took up the computer in favour of the 120 rule (or tables) once the computers met our needs.

It's making me realise why RGBM is such an important development. If you want flexibility in your computer then you need a deco model with the inherent flexibility built in. We're prbably still years away from a computer that will do the job but clearly it will come.

R..
 
diverbrian once bubbled...
I see the sarcasm that precedes flame wars starting.

I stopped following this thread more than a few posts back so I'm not really sure who you are refering to at this point. A general observation though: when you start seeing the sarcasm, it's a sure sign that somebody is loosing....


James
 
MHK has given a good explanation of the reasoning behind the DIR position on computers. We all have reasons why we do things. As always, it's good to look at different perspectives.

If my understanding is correct the reason for discouraging computers is based on efficiency. They can fail, be misused, lead to dependency

All devices fail. Including the biological one in your head, which will not only fail but assuredly become impaired by depth, when the stress level goes up, fatigued, distracted, etc. Is using an instrument that will probably not fail, but provide you at a glance with the critical information you mentally calculate using a bottom timer and depth gauge - a liability or an asset? In addition consider that it is not subject to the physical problems
mentioned above. This device makes it easier to track, monitor, and understand critical information during times of diminished physical/mental capacity. Computers today are quite reliable, in the event one was to fail a trained diver could switch over to a backup system or safely abort the dive. Would you prefer to do mental mathematical calculations when it would be more appropriate and efficient to use a calculator? Just because I use a calculator when appropriate (more efficient) does not imply I can’t do basic math. Just because I choose to use a device (dive computer) to track my dive profile because of its greater efficiency in performing this task, does not mean I’m not aware of what is taking place and can't handle a device failure.

A computer provides me with important information at a glance, exactly what instruments and their display panels are designed for. They can enhance our monitoring capabilities or situational awareness when properly used, not diminish them, especially
during stressful times. Right now with nothing more than a glance, not every five minutes after I’ve done a quick mathematical calculation, which is more likely to be wrong than the computer's more precise, and likely less error prone calculation.

When it is deemed that the user of a device has a tendency to solely rely on it, thereby creating a dependency at the expense of understanding what is taking place and the ability to manage a scenario where the device fails, appropriate measures must be taken. One of which is to discard or discourage use of such device. But this is only one option. Better training is another option. Improving the device another.

Furthermore, what is the likely consequence of discouraging the use of this device?. Many of the divers who are likely to not understand and misuse their computers are likely to be the same ones who have no desire to further advance their diving education and skills. These divers would probably be more likely to misuse the tables or mental tracking than a dive computer, since they are more difficult to operate and understand.
A dive computer inappropriately used may be better than the tables inappropriately used. At least the bells and red marks will give them a hint. These audible and visual alerts
that some dismiss as useless can assist the non thinking, and thinking diver, with very little effort on his part. Setting an alarm or a quick glance, something which the tables
and mental what? ...... do not so readily provide to many. You won’t find the right answer unless you consider the user and environment. .

The one qualified advantage attributed to dive computers is the increase they provide in bottom time, or it could be said in diminished deco time. How do these devices accomplish this?

Precision. Quick, accurate calculation, beyond human capability.

But deco theory is not precise. Yes. But, big but, once you have chosen your deco model, take your pick which is best, another topic for another thread; the closer you know where you stand with respect to your chosen deco model’s theoretically safe
parameters is an advantage. The more accurately you know where you stand, the better informed you are facilitating making better decisions. Given that a deviation from the norm increases or decreases the probabilities of getting a hit, even though the exact factor is unknown, we can assume that the greater the deviation the greater the safety/risk is. With greater precision than other less precise tracking devices or methods one is able to
better conform or deviate from the model’s parameters by a known factor. A deviation which is cumulative and becomes increasingly important in repetitive multiday/multilevel dives. If I'm not mistaken I beleive I've seen DAN statistics which show that DCS is much more likely in repetitive dives. Although there are many factors at work here, and educations is a big one, knowing the precise degree of deviation from the deco model norm could prove significant.

As some have pointed out degree of deviation may be insignificant with respect to computer or mental dive tracking. This is largely dependent on the dive profile, averages only work well within certain confined parameters. A dive with frequent depth level changes, sometimes relatively large, over a lenghty period of time, would increase in imprecision as the data sample rate increases. Although it may not be wise to perform certain dive profiles, the fact remains that many do to some extent, and a computer will accurately track these profiles which would be impractical and less precise to track mentally.

In summation, negatives attributes are mentioned as to why computer use is discouraged. Comparisons are made ad hoc, jumping from one to another, comparing apples and oranges, in what I see as an attempt to support a logically insupportable conclusion. Deco theory is imprecise, deco models have a buffer zone, comparing a point of one model to another point of another. All equally applicable to any and all deco models I’ve heard of, including the one proposed.

Most computer shortcomings can be attributed to operator error, operator ignorance, chance of failure, and deco model deficiencies. Many of these reasons are equally applicable to mental/manual dive tracking but are not mentioned as such, misleading some to reach the wrong conclusion that the proposed tracking method is immune from these deficiencies. Once again, we see only deficiencies pointed out with the intent to disparage something, without the mention of any positive attributes or mention of a scenario where the tool can be beneficial to those trained in its proper use. No negative attributes, only positive ones are presented or implied regarding the tool or method of choice, even when vaguely explained. Comparing the negative attributes of any device or method to the positive ones of another is a flawed analytical process which will likely result in a flawed conclusion.

I have not seen anyone propose a computer as a solve all problems, no thinking required, autopilot diving tool. Are computers necessary to safely dive? No. Are they a tool
offering certain advantages to divers? Yes. Is cost a factor to be consider by many? Yes.

One more point. This is a regulated public forum for the open discussion of ideas related to diving. Though undoubtedly anyone is free to pull from a discussion at any time for any reason, to begin one and then leave or claim foul (claiming insult, while not seeing how they insult others) when one’s point of views are challenged or a more persuasive argument is proposed.is not a convincing way to prove a point. Taking the high road claiming liability, inappropriate forum, lack of understanding, complex subject matter, protecting self interests, dubious intent by others, etc., is all fine and good - but proves
nothing. This is a DISCUSSION forum. This is not meant for MHK specifically since he has mentioned valid reasons to not continue certain discussions any further, which I can accept and thank him for his contributions. But, when this same pattern of excuses is
exhibited by many other DIR proponents with no such interests in many discussions where their ideas are challenged - makes me go hmm? Why not carry an argument out to its logical conclusion, wherever it may lead? Too busy defending the right way to find
what may be a better way?
 
Ask and ye shall receive :)

SSI Dive Control Specialist

Chapter 7 pg 8

....

If diver goes to the deepest depth first, and proceeds to successively shallower depths, then multi-level diving can be safe. If divers alternate between deep and shallow depths, however, then it is less safe. The reasons why are complex and have to do with the solubility of gases under pressure, but to illustrate in simple terms, imagine a sponge absorbing water. Sponges absorb water in varying amounts, but at some point will be saturated---they will hold no more water. The tissues at increased pressure are much like sponges; they will absorb nitrogen until they are saturated (for that pressure). At reduced pressure, tissues release nitrogen. If they are resubjected to increased pressure, they will again absorb nitrogen, but the residual nitrogen will affect that process."

As to how that affects decompression diving:

Pg 7-11

....
For these reasons, SSI only advocates no-decompression diving for any SSI training activities and SSI Authorized Dealer-sponsed activities. SSI believes that the extra bottom time is not worth the additional risk, and therefore does not offer training in decompression diving and does not sanction it as an SSI Specialty Course.

....

SSI Deep Diving Manual

Appendix four

AAUS Recommendations

"Repetitive and multi-level diving procedures should start the dive, or series of dives, at a maximum planned depth, followed by subsequent dives of shallower exposures."

Lang, M. and Hamilton, R. Proceedings of the American Academy of Underwater Sciences Dive Computer Workshop


Thank you for refreshing my memory. I am sure that I could find more direct references upon request about SSI's view an a proper dive profile. Obviously, I DO engage in limited staged Deco diving. I don't do that with SSI.

And you are correct that my IANTD training really isn't about my NDL diving (which by strict definition is still deco diving, even according to SSI). And neither agency will cut up a card issued if a diver chooses not follow all of their recommendations. I will never be in the physical conditioning of a top notch tech diver, not drink caffiene or alcohol ever, eat a perfect diet, etc. This is why I am not DIR. I applaud the divers with the discipline to live that way. I don't choose to.

I dive a computer (actually two of them). But, I temper the use of it with common sense. Computers are only as "perfect" as the person who programmed them in the factory. A quick "idiot check" in many aspects of life would prevent many mishaps. I don't wish to completely trust anyone that could have come in with a hangover on Monday morning because their favorite football team lost a game. I am responsible for my own safety and my own health.

But, just because I don't choose their way of diving doesn't mean that I will put it down. It works for them and I am sure that I have stolen some ideas on buoyancy control, trim, and equipment set-up from that school of divers. They have many good ideas and training. But you have to buy into the WHOLE system to make their formula work. I don't, but I see where it does for the people that practice their diving and lifestyles this way. As I said before, if you limit your variables, rules of thumb work very well.

I am getting to the point where I would rather read someone's ideas presented in a POSITIVE light then spend my time shooting down ideas that other people have carved in stone.

I also agree that there always is the risk of getting bent. It is somewhat like driving a car. By taking a car out of the driveway, I am risking an accident. But, if I stay within speed limits, stay aware of what is going on, and otherwise practice same driving habits, I reduce the chances of an accident happening in the first place and the severity of it if it does happen. If I stay slightly more conservative than my tables and computer and dive "safely", I could still get bent, although the chances are lower. AND, I CAN pretty much guarantee that when they take a blood sample they will get blood and NOT foam.
 

Back
Top Bottom