Did mask removal feel like a punch for anyone else?

[iztok]

Either way your instructor violated standards.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Surprise mask removal may be a violation because of the screwed up legal system we must live with, but IMO it should not be. Sure, work up to the skill but if your going to loose a mask it will happen unexpectedly, and suddenly. I have not completely lost a mask, but have come close several times. Been kicked in the face more than once and hard, and had current rip it off more than once. These events were not predicated by a discussion on what was coming next.

Mask removal is a key skill and it is a shame that USA standards are so legally correct as when it really happens there is no warning, and people have died as a result of loosing their mask. This is one skill I suggest all divers practice often. I was diving with Walter (FL) from SB and the one thing he did at the end of the dive was mask removal. I thought that was interesting based on the amount he dives being an instructor from FL.

I am fairly positive that surprise mask removal is part of the UDI cave training my buddies do but I will have to ask.

Since the OP does not live within the USA, are we sure the standards of his class are the same as ours? For sure he doesn't have to deal with the liability issues imposed by the US legal system. Spain's legal system may be as screwed up as ours ... or not ... or for different reasons.

Does anyone really know for sure? I know I don't ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[iztok]

Bob, I don't think PADI standard would be different in Spain as it is in US.

 

[RonFrank]

The amount of leeway an instructor has in Spain may be very different.

I also do not know, but this is a PADI rule, NOT anything that is a US law. I'm surprised that folks are behind PADI in this as a surprise loss, or loosening/shifting of a mask is a VERY likely scenario. Yet iztok acts as if PADI is the end all of this.

 

[avatar]

Good class. I took a YMCA class 30+ years ago,We also did ditch and recovery, and spent hours on physics and physiology. On the last pool session, masks were ripped off, tanks were shut off, and they made us buddy breathe.They wanted us to be able to deal with stress, something PADI avoids, because heaven forbid, somebody might not pass.
When I took the PADI OW class a few years back, I couldn't belive they were turning people loose with so little. It sounds like the OPs instructor was intent that his students learn some valuable skills that may save his/her life sometime. And yes, I did feel like hitting the guy that took my mask off.

 

[ItsBruce]

My first dives were in a small pool with a bunch of divers. My mask was regularly knocked off. But, that was long ago and I do not recall my feelings.

Now, when I dive, my practice is to remove my mask shortly after I get in the water. I put my face into the water and I open my eyes. Its usually cold and always stings. However, once the sting is gone, I'm immune to the salt water for awhile. Also, subsequent flooding is not a shock. Then, during my dive, I regularly flood and clear my mask. Should it flood or be knocked off, it may be a surprise, but it is never a shock.

 

[DevonDiver]

Hmm. Yes. It was one of the swimming pool exercises:
- Take off everything (but the wetsuit). Leave it on the bottom. Go back to surface and then go down and recover/put on equipment.

... Getting your mask removed was just one more.

What you describe above is specifically prohibited by PADI. Instructors aren't allowed to add their own training elements to courses - the concept being that they follow a standardised outline within agreed and defined safety parameters.

I won't try and argue whether it is right or wrong, good or bad, but will simply state that such non-standard training exercises would be a major breach of PADI instructor standards - leaving that instructor open for accusations of training standards violations and possible disciplinary action by PADI (suspension, re-training, reprimand etc). It also leaves the instructor wide-open for legal liability, as those exercises are not authorised by PADI and he is not authorised or trained to conduct them...

Whether the drills were beneficial or not, whether they seemed logical or not, what you were exposed to was a very poor demonstration of role-model behaviour. If an instructor would flippantly ignore his standards, how can he reasonably expect his student to exit their training course with a well-modelled mindset that recognises the prudence of adhering to limitations?

In my experience, such evidence is normally the 'tip of the iceberg'. It's not hard to run a PADI OW course according to the standards. Standards that the individual instructor agrees to abide by, in return for the privilege of teaching under PADI's auspices. When instructors cannot maintain those standards, it normally points to a more serious issue regards mindset.

 

[DevonDiver]

Good class. I took a YMCA class 30+ years ago,We also did ditch and recovery, and spent hours on physics and physiology. On the last pool session, masks were ripped off, tanks were shut off, and they made us buddy breathe.They wanted us to be able to deal with stress, something PADI avoids, because heaven forbid, somebody might not pass.
When I took the PADI OW class a few years back, I couldn't belive they were turning people loose with so little. It sounds like the OPs instructor was intent that his students learn some valuable skills that may save his/her life sometime. And yes, I did feel like hitting the guy that took my mask off.

1. The use of specific 'training standards' isn't unique to PADI. Every agency has defined standards for tuition.

2. In the last 30+ years, most agencies have refined their training into formal syllabus, limiting instructor discretion for novel activities.

3. Without limitations, students have no safeguards that their instructor is acting in their best interests and safety.

4. There have been reported cases/incidents caused by over-zealous instructors, also issues with 'bully', 'hazing' and/or physical abuse.

5. A weak-minded instructor might want to imagine themselves as some sort of 'elite' BUD/S trainer... but they aren't. Such Walter Mitty behaviour is normally indicative of exactly the wrong type of person to be conducting training. Yes, they do some 'rough stuff' in BUD/S... but the safety standards are immense. Medics immediately on-hand, hyperbaric chamber primed and ready, support/rescue diver-student ration of 1-2/1. An OW instructor, maybe with a DM assistant, aren't remotely capable of replicating those safety standards for OW classes.

6. There are arguments for, and against, stress induction in entry-level training. Stress management can be taught safely above-water. This is often confused with teaching aspects such as familiarisation with air depletion, which should be taught safely below water, in the standard curriculum.

7. OP's instructor demonstrated one thing - that he couldn't follow the basic guidelines that came with his acceptance to teach the PADI curriculum. Like it or not, it demonstrated poor ethical and legal decision making on that instructors' behalf. Personally, I wouldn't do training with someone who had poor ethics.

8. It is perfectly achievable to create very high calibre student divers within the confines of a set course syllabus. If the instructor concerned cannot achieve that, then there should be question over his teaching prowess. The existing syllabus contains all of the tools, skills and drills needed to form a safe, capable diver - what varies is the instructor's ability to apply those tools, skills and drills effectively.

9. Instructor ego has a large role to play in their decision making on course conduct and the adherence to standards. If ego outweighs prudence, then it probably also outweighs safety considerations and a genuine desire to produce good results in a manner which all students can appreciate.

10. Recreational diving isn't military diving. Anyone who fantasises otherwise is deluded - be that the egotistical instructor or the over-zealous student. A PADI OW course is not the place to re-enact Navy SEAL or James Bond fantasies.

 

[tadawson]

Good class. I took a YMCA class 30+ years ago,We also did ditch and recovery, and spent hours on physics and physiology. On the last pool session, masks were ripped off, tanks were shut off, and they made us buddy breathe.They wanted us to be able to deal with stress, something PADI avoids, because heaven forbid, somebody might not pass.
When I took the PADI OW class a few years back, I couldn't believe they were turning people loose with so little. It sounds like the OPs instructor was intent that his students learn some valuable skills that may save his/her life sometime. And yes, I did feel like hitting the guy that took my mask off.

I certed with PADI 32 years or so ago, and we ran the full gamut of pool harassment as you describe - buddy breath laps while masks knocked loose, etc. PADI has only decided to not teach those skills since then, and that's sad . . . that stuff, I feel, made me a much better diver.

And I can't say that I recall that stuff ever bothering me . . . we were too well prepared by that time to be bothered.

- Tim

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It sounds like the OP did a class that included a ditch and don as well. Standard in our classes for ow. I'm guessing he had an instructor that believes in task loading and preparing divers to dive independently. While his instructor may have went against the standards of some agencies I'd like to talk to him about crossing over to ours!