Details surrounding death of USN divers +1 year ago finally released under FOIA
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deedeediver
Contributor
That is the difference between unsung heros. That is what is on the line for these guys every day of their lives. But they choose to stay until the end with their buddies, their team. That is what makes
them the best damn spec war group in the world.... they will always stay until the end and hopefully they will all smoke a cigar.
---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 07:59 PM ----------
Again Winter, you dont get it. The guy was trying to save his buddy, he didnt stop trying!!!! Would you do that or have the capability of doing that without your self preservation mode kicking in?
NO,, that is what these guys are trained to do and that is why they are the best of the best.
I think your motto is correct: "is down to no good" fits, you just dont get it.
I could only hope that I would have someone by my side in a dire situation as brave as both of them were considering they both knew they were going to die, but they didnt stop trying.
them the best damn spec war group in the world.... they will always stay until the end and hopefully they will all smoke a cigar.
---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 07:59 PM ----------
Again Winter, you dont get it. The guy was trying to save his buddy, he didnt stop trying!!!! Would you do that or have the capability of doing that without your self preservation mode kicking in?
NO,, that is what these guys are trained to do and that is why they are the best of the best.
I think your motto is correct: "is down to no good" fits, you just dont get it.
I could only hope that I would have someone by my side in a dire situation as brave as both of them were considering they both knew they were going to die, but they didnt stop trying.
That distinction arguably belongs to the SEAL teams, though other services might debate the point. Mobile Diving and Salvage Units are not special warfare divers. Their job is to locate, recover, repair, and/or clear objects underwater. On rare occasions they could perform specialized rescues, but they are usually too late on the scene for that. Any combat activity they perform is to accomplish these tasks. Ideally, they are provided combat support so they can perform their specialized work.
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit Two
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dumpsterDiver
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daniel f aleman
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I'm Mexican, so: there are no heroes, just dead people.
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
I agree with kwinter that creating a second victim is generally discouraged, no matter how brave doing so may be. Seeing as how this is the A/I Forum and not Passings, it’s quite appropriate to note that being braver than your skillset can support can end with you being just as dead as your buddy and just because you think you’ll have enough time to bail if your efforts fail…you might have guessed wrong about the margin for error.
But the ‘don’t create two victims’ rule is taught to minimally-trained recreational divers for diving with what's often going to be an insta-buddy. Even the blandest PADI rescue instructor will caveat the 'don't just make it a double body recovery' admonishment with a reference to something like 'if you're diving with your [insert family member here], of course you're going to do what you feel you have to do....' In this context, you're dealing with professional divers whose entire training and relationship to each other is based around shared dedication to an ideal, that the only thing more important than their teammates is the mission. The untrapped diver’s efforts are understandable and laudable in that context, whereas we’d not praise (or at least not unequivocally praise) the bravery of a tourist who got him/herself killed trying to rescue an instabuddy. In fact, the only thing about this that really surprised me was that the trapped diver didn’t cut his tether and free his over-determined swim buddy when he realized he wasn’t going to make it. But perhaps unconsciousness or panic got him before he could make that choice; we’ll never know.
There are lessons here about what not to do if you’re not a military or rescue diver. If you are one, this is more a lesson in how badly things can go sideways to the point to where your choices are either do a dive that might get you killed, or, disobey a direct and likely lawful order from some moron who doesn’t belong in the position they hold. Respect to those who place themselves in such a potentially untenable position out of a desire to serve.
But the ‘don’t create two victims’ rule is taught to minimally-trained recreational divers for diving with what's often going to be an insta-buddy. Even the blandest PADI rescue instructor will caveat the 'don't just make it a double body recovery' admonishment with a reference to something like 'if you're diving with your [insert family member here], of course you're going to do what you feel you have to do....' In this context, you're dealing with professional divers whose entire training and relationship to each other is based around shared dedication to an ideal, that the only thing more important than their teammates is the mission. The untrapped diver’s efforts are understandable and laudable in that context, whereas we’d not praise (or at least not unequivocally praise) the bravery of a tourist who got him/herself killed trying to rescue an instabuddy. In fact, the only thing about this that really surprised me was that the trapped diver didn’t cut his tether and free his over-determined swim buddy when he realized he wasn’t going to make it. But perhaps unconsciousness or panic got him before he could make that choice; we’ll never know.
There are lessons here about what not to do if you’re not a military or rescue diver. If you are one, this is more a lesson in how badly things can go sideways to the point to where your choices are either do a dive that might get you killed, or, disobey a direct and likely lawful order from some moron who doesn’t belong in the position they hold. Respect to those who place themselves in such a potentially untenable position out of a desire to serve.
uwxplorer
Contributor
Narcosis?
AfterDark
Contributor
So the leaders in what the investigation described as multiple points of failure and decision making decided to modify the dive and use scuba gear. They calculated that a single canister of air for each diver would be adequate for a quick dive down to the helicopter and directly back up again.
The ultimate trust me dive, even if they knew it was bad they had to dive the plan they were given. Sad.
When someone says he's the kind of guy I'd want to be in a foxhole with, Harris is the kind of guy they're talking about, not one who'd run away to "fight" another day.
The ultimate trust me dive, even if they knew it was bad they had to dive the plan they were given. Sad.
When someone says he's the kind of guy I'd want to be in a foxhole with, Harris is the kind of guy they're talking about, not one who'd run away to "fight" another day.
deedeediver
Contributor
HI there Akimbo:Yes MUDSU is a little different, but they all believe in the same core values and they are trained with the same values of spec war. Spec war covers a really large field and to say MUDSU cannot be part of that is a simiply not true. They are training in the worse conditions to do underwater jobs, recovery, reconstruction, EOD work underwater that only they can do. Thank you for correcting me. But that is how I look at them. I am not one but have been around MUDSU, EOD, Seals, fighter pilots and the like.
Are you are a member of MUDSU2 group?
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit Two[/QUOTE]
Are you are a member of MUDSU2 group?
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit Two[/QUOTE]
No, I was a Saturation Diver at Submarine Development Group 1 in the early 1970s. The Mobile Diving and Salvage Units were just being organized with their major emphasis on submarine rescue, at least as far as the public knew. They were developing the first fly-away packages in the Navy including the old McCann Rescue Chamber.
The McCann Bell was pretty obsolete by then because the two Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicles were operational. At the point I took this picture they hadn't received their double-lock chamber yet and were still gathering gear for the unit. One of the Master Divers on my sat system asked (ordered?) me to look at some electronic packages they had questions about.
I can tell you that this sense of brotherhood is not unique to military diving. It also exists in the more advanced levels of commercial diving for the same reason. You just can't do this kind of work without it. I don't recall any formal or on-the-job training that taught this ethic in the years of training the Navy gave me. It is a necessity of the profession. Your life is literally in the hands of the people that support you.
You can't teach honor or obligation to another person to the point they are willing to risk their life to save yours. You can help them develop what is inside them, which the military does well. Individuals have to reach that conclusion on their own.
The purpose of my comment was not to take anything away from Navy Divers, Underwater Construction Teams, or EOD (Explosive Ordinance Disposal). Their work is very different from SEALs and all four groups deserve to be properly recognized for their special contribution.
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