Details surrounding death of USN divers +1 year ago finally released under FOIA

[flots am]

I'm not sure why people keep trying to turn this into an "honor" or "stick with your buddy" thing, since it's really irrelevant, except for turning a single fatality into a double fatality.

If anybody really wants to save their buddy's life, I would suggest not doing a dive that's "defective by design" with no possible way of handling any sort of failure.

flots.

 

[Herb-alaska]

I think a key that keeps getting looked over is that the free diver was the lifeline for the trapped diver, he was the only diver directly tethered to the surface. Had he cut himself loose then the Back up diver ( rescue diver ) that was supposed to be on the way would not have had an opportunity to find the trapped diver. Had they been tethered separately then the non trapped diver would have had one more option, which would be to head for the surface before he died and hopped that he passed the back up diver who should have been on the way down.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

There really is so much going on with this thread and we need to be able to see other's point of view without the name calling. It appears that both gear and protocol failures caused this to happen. There is really no comparsion to a pick up dive buddy, family getting beat down, etc. to a group of highly trained military personnel. In any of the various cases you simply do not have a backup diver, trained personnel, etc. available as well as the team concept. These fine men did and expected the backup diver to do his / her duty to the upmost. So the diver, more than likely, stayed with the other diver trying to assist until the backup diver came to help. And that, sadly did not happen. There is a phrase we use in the military, it might be different to various services / groups, but it means the same. "I have your back," "I got your six," or "I have the watch." When these words are said, it really means just that. You can rest assure that I will do everything in my ability to protect you and thus it decreases the fear of going it alone without help.

This was read at my retirement as I have worked with Navy personnel during my 20 years. It was taken from the Navy with the substitution of Marine for Sailor.

The Watch
For twenty years
This Marine has stood the watch While some of us were in our bunks at night
This Marine stood the watch
While some of us were in school learning our trade
This Marine stood the watch
Yes.. even before some of us were born into this world
This Marine stood the watch
In those years when the storm clouds of war were seen brewing on the horizon of history
This Marine stood the watch
Many times he would cast an eye ashore and see his family standing there
Needing his guidance and help
Needing that hand to hold during those hard times
But he still stood the watch
He stood the watch for twenty years
He stood the watch so that we, our families and
Our fellow countrymen could sleep soundly in safety, Each and every night
Knowing that a Marine stood the watch
Today we are here to say
"Marine... the watch stands relieved
Relieved by those You have trained ,Guided, and Lead
Marine you stand relieved.. we have the watch..."
"Boatswain..Standby to pipe the side...Marine going Ashore.."

To those that lost their lives that day, I can only say, "your time was well served and remembered by those that you assisted, guided, lead and loved. Your watch stands relieved. Rest well my brothers."

 

[Akimbo]

… If anybody really wants to save their buddy's life, I would suggest not doing a dive that's "defective by design" with no possible way of handling any sort of failure…

I'm not sure how "defective" this dive would be by recreational standards for well-trained divers. Being tethered and having a standby diver team ready to splash goes way beyond what most rec divers have available. A lot of recreational dives are made near soft mud bottoms at 150'+ using doubles. There are certainly potential entanglement hazards in many of these locations as well.

All divers involved were at least Second Class (divers, not Petty Officers) and were probably First Class. By "well-trained", here is the current duration of classes — typically +/-8 hours/day. Granted, a significant amount of time is spent teaching underwater work methods, surface supplied diving, and physical training that recreational divers would never get. However, all underwater experience has value to diver safety.

Scuba​	25 training days​
Second Class Diver​	89 training days​
First Class Diver​	65 training days

 

[flots am]

I’m not sure how “defective” this dive would be by recreational standards for well-trained divers. Being tethered and having a standby diver team ready to splash goes way beyond what most rec divers have available. A lot of recreational dives are made near soft mud bottoms at 150'+ using doubles. There are certainly potential entanglement hazards in many of these locations as well.

From my reading of the thread, they were using single tanks, and had switched from surface-supplied air, which isn't what they had planned on using.

flots.

 

[Akimbo]

From my reading of the thread, they were using single tanks, and had switched from surface-supplied air, which isn't what they had planned on using...

I could be wrong but everything I read is they planned on using Mark 16s because the barge wasn't close enough for surface supplied operations.

From my Post #35

…The “Mark 16” is a mixed gas eCCR used primarily by special forces. When it failed, presumably pre-dive checks, it caused them to go on open-circuit Scuba. Deep breathing techniques that are indifferent to the amount of gas used/circulated serve a surface supplied or rebreather diver well to prevent CO2 buildup. That same technique blows through gas on open circuit Scuba really fast...

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a091892.pdf

I wouldn't be surprised if they blew through a set of doubles like we would burn through a single. It is very common among military and commercial surface supplied divers. We usually calculate usage on a 1.5 Ft³ surface equivalent RMV for surface supplied working dives.

I have never seen singles used in US Navy on open-circuit Scuba except for very shallow operations were the diver had to climb out of the water a lot. For example: recovering floating objects like submersibles, space capsules, or instrument packages. Of course they use singles for bailout bottles when surface supplied.

 

[acidrush]

I was not a professional soldier, just a conscript like every other male in my country. However, I can fully relate to what happened. The uniformed services have a way of instilling a unique bond in their members. You sweat together, cry together, laugh together, it creates a very unique bond. You may not even like some of them on a personal level, but at the same time, you would also do anything to save them. It may sound stupid to someone who has not been in the services, but that's just how the training creates this bond or camaraderie.

Some people are approaching it from the perspective of a "instant" buddy on a dive. If you have never worn a uniform, just picture the trapped diver as your son, daughter, sister or brother, would you cut the line and leave?

 

[abnfrog]

Kwinter, I dont think you understand the honor and code of the Navy Spec warfare groups:.... No Man Left Behind. Both of those men believed in that, they died for that.

thats not just the navy .. the army sf says the same thing and its in the ranger creed also ....command should be crucified for this, 2 good men died and it could have been more rest in peace my brothers .....

 

[matt_w]

If you're looking for blame, you can start with "everybody".

The guy running the dive should never have allowed the men to go down with an inappropriate gas supply and equipment and a bad plan, and the men should have refused to do it because it was overly dangerous for the objective.

They weren't attempting to sneak past a foreign border and do spy work, they were marking the location of some crap underwater. In the US. On a military base.

This could have been done at any time. There was no reason to take a significant risk to complete this operation. It could have been done next week or next month or next year.

And there is no honor in dying with your buddy if doing so can't accomplish anything. I'm sorry the guys are dead, but if you do enough stuff wrong, bad things happen.

This wasn't combat and there's no honor in dying for this operation. There is only bad decisions and tragedy.

flots.

The guy in charge was found to be guilty of dereliction of duty, I think they nailed the blame thing.

 

[Rich Keller]

"That heroism will be honored in coming months, when the Navy posthumously awards Harris the Navy and Marine Corps Medal."

Sorry, but I don't see anything worth honoring. It wasn't valor or courage. It was stupidity. You don't become the second victim.

You have no idea what valor and courage mean. You sit at your computer hiding behind a screen name and say things that you would not have the courage to say to divers like this in person. Calling them stupid is just your opinion and you have the right to express that opinion. You did not earn this right, it was earned by people like them.