Details surrounding death of USN divers +1 year ago finally released under FOIA

[EastEndDiver]

To all those who criticized my comment, I would point out that the military code also specifies that the first job of a soldier is to stay alive so he can do his job. Suicide is not heroic. Or to paraphrase General Patton, "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his." Surrendering your own life out of loyalty to a friend or comrade is stupid as well as a dereliction of duty. And if you could ask the friend's opinion before he died, I'm sure he would have said the same thing.

QUOTE]


WOW ......I can't believe what you said.Obviously you have never been in the military .

Maybe when you are walking around some day,thanks to the freedom that our military has granted you, you could go to a Military cemetery and look at the headstones and some of the ages of the men then stop and realize that in that cemetery there are military members who gave their life so that the person next to them could live.They didn't want to die but they stood up and did what was necessary at the time with disregard to their own safety for the sake of another person.

I know you won't have a clue what I am saying but those who served will.

 

[flots am]

To all those who criticized my comment, I would point out that the military code also specifies that the first job of a soldier is to stay alive so he can do his job. Suicide is not heroic. Or to paraphrase General Patton, "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his." Surrendering your own life out of loyalty to a friend or comrade is stupid as well as a dereliction of duty. And if you could ask the friend's opinion before he died, I'm sure he would have said the same thing.

QUOTE]


WOW ......I can't believe what you said.Obviously you have never been in the military .

Maybe when you are walking around some day,thanks to the freedom that our military has granted you, you could go to a Military cemetery and look at the headstones and some of the ages of the men then stop and realize that in that cemetery there are military members who gave their life so that the person next to them could live.They didn't want to die but they stood up and did what was necessary at the time with disregard to their own safety for the sake of another person.

I know you won't have a clue what I am saying but those who served will.

kwinter and Patton were both right and I think you're muddying the waters a bit.

These guys weren't storming a beach in France, they were trying to find some crap in the bottom of a lake.

This wasn't a mission and there was no enemy. It's just guys with poor judgement doing a job with a bad boss. This happens all the time in industry. Usually OSHA gets called.

In fact, the whole "dying for your country" thing is being phased out as quickly as possible, which is why drones and semi-autonomous robots and weapons are being deployed as rapidly as possible.

This incident was a tragedy and doubly so because it was absolutely unnecessary.

I've lost a number of relatives in various wars, inclusing WW2 and Vietnam, and can tell you that I'd be absolutely furious if a friend or relative was killed in in this incident.

Dying becuse you're trying to kill Hitler and got caught is honorable. Dying in an industrial accident because your boss didn't want to look bad is criminal.

 

[Akimbo]

Chill folks. Both kwinter and those that take offense to his comments have valid points. The article clearly does not illustrate reality. This is a tragedy that should have been prevented and bears little resemblance to lying on a hand grenade or taking a bullet.

These men were well-trained and experienced professionals. The most valiant efforts to save an entrapped diver cost another diver his life. I was not a matter of "I'm going to hold my shipmates hand and die with him". There is no doubt that he was trying to save him and misjudged how long it would take to extricate himself at the very last moment. There is no honor in dying for no good reason. There is honor is doing your very best to save another even when it doesn't work out happily for either.

 

[EastEndDiver]

kwinter and Patton were both right and I think you're muddying the waters a bit.

These guys weren't storming a beach in France, they were trying to find some crap in the bottom of a lake.

This wasn't a mission and there was no enemy. It's just guys with poor judgement doing a job with a bad boss. This happens all the time in industry. Usually OSHA gets called.

In fact, the whole "dying for your country" thing is being phased out as quickly as possible, which is why drones and semi-autonomous robots and weapons are being deployed as rapidly as possible.

This incident was a tragedy and doubly so because it was absolutely unnecessary.

I've lost a number of relatives in various wars, inclusing WW2 and Vietnam, and can tell you that I'd be absolutely furious if a friend or relative was killed in in this incident.

Dying becuse you're trying to kill Hitler and got caught is honorable. Dying in an industrial accident because your boss didn't want to look bad is criminal.

He died trying to save a fellow Navy diver whether or not it was during wartime is irrelevant.What kwinter said was disrespectful and totally uncalled for.

 

[Akimbo]

More info:

Master diver found negligent in incident that killed two

It isn't clear to me if Senior Chief and Master Diver Burger was actually running the side or not. However, he had operational responsibility even if he was getting a haircut on base. I am very surprised that standby divers weren't deployed either when emergency hand signals (jerks on the tether) indicated they were in trouble or communications was lost when the line was fouled. These standard signals are very well known.

The "Mark 16" is a mixed gas eCCR used primarily by special forces. When it failed, presumably pre-dive checks, it caused them to go on open-circuit Scuba. Deep breathing techniques that are indifferent to the amount of gas used/circulated serve a surface supplied or rebreather diver well to prevent CO2 buildup. That same technique blows through gas on open circuit Scuba really fast.

On a separate note, is interesting that the NEDU pulled their cold-water approval for the Apeks TX50 as a result of testing prompted by this accident.

Edit: After the fourth read of this article it dawned on me that the standby divers had the problem with the Apeks TX50 regulator(s) and were unable to assist.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

"That heroism will be honored in coming months, when the Navy posthumously awards Harris the Navy and Marine Corps Medal."

Sorry, but I don't see anything worth honoring. It wasn't valor or courage. It was stupidity. You don't become the second victim.

Seriously... a guy does EVERYTHING he possibly can to help another while endangering himself and you say it was not courageous?

I can see how some people (who have a very different set of morals than myself) might believe that his actions were stupid (since they resulted in his death), but I am amazed that you can not also see this as an extremely courageous act.

 

[flots am]

Seriously... a guy does EVERYTHING he possibly can to help another while endangering himself and you say it was not courageous?

I said the entire incident was stupid and unnecessary.

flots.

 

[Centrals]

On a separate note, is interesting that the EDU pulled their cold-water approval for the Apeks TX50 as a result of testing prompted by this accident.

I wonder what the replacement will be?

 

[mmadiver]

I wonder what the replacement will be?

We use several regulators from different manufacturers. Do a google search for the "authorized for military usage" (AMU) list, all approved regulators are on it.

 

[Centrals]

We use several regulators from different manufacturers. Do a google search for the "authorized for military usage" (AMU) list, all approved regulators are on it.

Have they all been evaluated as TX50 after this tragedy?