Details surrounding death of USN divers +1 year ago finally released under FOIA

[ReefGuy]

So much for the safety of being tethered to the surface....

Something I don't understand

So according to the report they were on single tanks. What reserve would they have had?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Probably a case where the reporter does not understand what they are reporting, and can't or won't take the time to do so.

 

[Altamira]

To all those who criticized my comment, I would point out that the military code also specifies that the first job of a soldier is to stay alive so he can do his job. Suicide is not heroic. Or to paraphrase General Patton, "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his." Surrendering your own life out of loyalty to a friend or comrade is stupid as well as a dereliction of duty. And if you could ask the friend's opinion before he died, I'm sure he would have said the same thing.

We are all taught to monitor our gas supply. And to surface when it gets low. If this was a situation outside the military where 2 buddies went diving and the second one died because he wouldn't leave the first one and chose to run out of gas himself, I don't thing anyone would be calling it heroic. The fact that the second victim wore a uniform does not alter the fact that his actions were a stupid mistake.

I rarely would say something like this in a forum, but you deserve at least a good verbal smack for your immature, stupid, and disrespectful comments about fallen military people. I wish you had the guts to go make those comments to their families and fellow sailors or marines, and see how long it takes for one of them to knock you on your ass. You really are more obtuse and clueless than I originally thought. Grow up, and show some respect for those that that died serving their country, regardless of the cause or whether you, in your dubious wisdom, thinks it was stupid. Furthermore, I would have thought your parents would have taught you that those kind of comments about people that have died serving their country, that are posted in a public forum that any one of their parents, friends or teammates might read, are so hurtful and classless that it defies the imagination. When you removed your first post, I thought you at least had some shred of decency, but no, you just doubled down. In case you are wondering who I am: Lt Col Guy Munder, USAF Retired

 

[ajduplessis]

I really want to be there when Karma a$$f@(ks you with a cactus kwinter. Lady Karma loves courting those that lack empathy and respect.

dive safe, Karma is watching your back

 

[flots am]

These men were serving their country and one put aside his own life trying to save another. What is it called then? Your commander gives you an order, you follow it. It's seems the surface crew is to blame not the divers. By the sounds of it neither could have made it to the surface.

If you're looking for blame, you can start with "everybody".

The guy running the dive should never have allowed the men to go down with an inappropriate gas supply and equipment and a bad plan, and the men should have refused to do it because it was overly dangerous for the objective.

They weren't attempting to sneak past a foreign border and do spy work, they were marking the location of some crap underwater. In the US. On a military base.

This could have been done at any time. There was no reason to take a significant risk to complete this operation. It could have been done next week or next month or next year.

And there is no honor in dying with your buddy if doing so can't accomplish anything. I'm sorry the guys are dead, but if you do enough stuff wrong, bad things happen.

This wasn't combat and there's no honor in dying for this operation. There is only bad decisions and tragedy.

flots.

 

[mmadiver]

This wasn't combat and there's no honor in dying for this operation. There is only bad decisions and tragedy.

flots.

While I agree with your sentiment that this was an absolute failure of leadership. That fact has already been well established and no one is disputing it.

The Navy Diver chose to stay with his team mate and attempted to free him until his dying breath expecting help would be coming. He made a conscious decision to stay rather than abandon a friend; leaving him to die alone on the bottom. How you can suggest there is no honor in that is beyond me.

It's no surprise that this is a difficult concept for some to grasp, not everyone possesses that strength of character.

 

[Adam Grose]

Nah.... a cactus enema would be more appropriate.

I really want to be there when Karma a$$f@(ks you with a cactus kwinter. Lady Karma loves courting those that lack empathy and respect.

dive safe, Karma is watching your back

 

[tomfcrist]

I think kwinter should take some advise at this point....go away, say nothing, reflect.

Seriously, I think it's about to get very rec.scuba in this mofo.

 

[Akimbo]

Kwinter, I dont think you understand the honor and code of the Navy Spec warfare groups:...

The Navy Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit is not a special warfare group. Don't confuse them with Special Forces combat swimmers. Navy divers spend very little time on SCUBA of any type so their skills are often not what a recreational diver might expect. They are working divers and the vast majority of their time in training and working is surface-supplied. I was a Navy diver and the same is true of commercial divers.

However, a "foxhole-like mentality" does develop because a working diver's life is very dependent on the team on deck. They are brothers even when they don't personally like each other. It has far more to do with a personal dedication to other divers who would readily risk their lives for each other than any unwritten code.

This phenomenon is well known to diving supervisors at all levels of industry and the military. Many are formally trained to prevent divers from putting themselves at unreasonable risk to save another. This was actually dramatized in one of the opening scenes of the film Men of Honor. I also witnessed Master Diver Candidates being verbally "tested" in this area when I was in First Class Diving School.

 

[Cruisin Home]

This wasn't combat and there's no honor in dying for this operation.

Like I said in my post, there are many such people out there who have unfortunately forgotten what honor is.
All I can say to you is consider if he was helping to save your son, daughter, wife, etc.?

He didnt die for the operation....he died helping a military brother.

Captain USAir Force Retired

 

[Akimbo]

While I agree with your sentiment that this was an absolute failure of leadership….

I concur. Anyone who thinks Navy Divers are expendable, like WWI infantry, is sadly mistaken. Navy Diving has a long history of ending careers when a diver dies. Sadly sometimes a scapegoat gets screwed, but everyone is on notice that it doesn't pay for a diver to die on your watch.

…The Navy Diver chose to stay with his team mate and attempted to free him until his dying breath expecting help would be coming. He made a conscious decision to stay rather than abandon a friend; leaving him to die alone on the bottom…

It's not like we don't think about these situations long before they happen. I tend to think that Petty Officer Harris probably misjudged what it would take to free himself at the very last minute. I can see not wanting to cut his tether to Petty Officer Reyher until all hope was lost given what was certainly zero visibility conditions by then. They both had tons of time in zero vis so the problems were intuitively appreciated. The last thing you would want is to lose the trapped diver before it really was beyond hope. It was especially problematic because Harris was in the middle of the daisy-chain.

Edit: You also have to consider that there was no time or visibility to check an SPG.

Personally, I feel that labeling the tragedy a "selfless act" dishonors the professional. I don't believe that Harris planned to save his buddy or die trying — close maybe but not actually die. If nothing else, the deceased diver would not want to be responsible for the death of another even in an accident.