Definition of technical diving

[pipedope]

That's easy to say until you have to pay their price for trimix. Even the places in Florida that are though of as having cheap gas are WAY off the scale when it comes to helium. They charge as much per cubic foot for the whole mix as I used to sell just the helium for. They are insane and they can take their pricier than gold mix and suck it down themselves.
There are some deep wrecks and caves in Florida that we want to dive but I'm going to arrange it so I take the gas I need with me because I will not pay what they want for gas. To put in in perspective trimix for my wife and I for a couple dives will cost more than the whole rest of the trip. Last week we had a bill down there of over $200 and that was just nitrox and air for 11 dives. If we had done a couple deep dives it would have more than doubled that.

I guess you think they shouldn't be able to make any profit?

Gee, what does it 'really' cost to mix trimix?
Please include the cost of gas, labor, insurance, shop overhead and any other costs I may have left out, like maybe a small profit.

If shops don't sell gas, then gas won't be available. The less gas they sell the more it is going to cost. Ever hear of economy of scale?

I guess the next requirement will be that prospective tech divers must invent and build all of their gear themselves and also develop and validate all procedures used. Heck, next they will have to mine their own gas.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess you think they shouldn't be able to make any profit?

Gee, what does it 'really' cost to mix trimix?
Please include the cost of gas, labor, insurance, shop overhead and any other costs I may have left out, like maybe a small profit.

If shops don't sell gas, then gas won't be available. The less gas they sell the more it is going to cost. Ever hear of economy of scale?

I guess the next requirement will be that prospective tech divers must invent and build all of their gear themselves and also develop and validate all procedures used. Heck, next they will have to mine their own gas.

Since I ran a shop that provided trimix for 4 years I know exactly what all the costs are and take that into account.

I pay the highest price for helium that I know of and in fact know that the big gas mixers pay a good deal less.

My useable helium costs me about $0.3/cubic ft (because I don't have a booster). The cheapest shops are charging like $0.5/cubic foot for the whole mix and they have a booster and even buy liquid O2 at a fraction of what I pay. I used to charge that for just the helium. Their pulling some one's leg! I don't care to pay $0.5 per cubic foot of air and O2, you?

You pay it if you want but I can't and won't. I mix my own and will continue to.

If the shops go away, life will remain exactly the same for me. There isn't a shop within a 100 miles of me that's any use at all to a technical diver. LOL You're kidding right?

When did you last buy a couple sets of double 104's and some stages full of 10/70 anyway?

I baught decompression gas once and paid $25 for an Al 80 of 50% nitrox. That was the last time.

And I really loved this statement...

I guess the next requirement will be that prospective tech divers must invent and build all of their gear themselves and also develop and validate all procedures used. Heck, next they will have to mine their own gas

Why don't you tell us about the dive shops contribution to technical diving. Given that most won't even allow it to be discussed in the shop. LOL

Give me a break!

 

[diverbrian]

Why don't you tell us about the dive shops contribution to technical diving. Given that most won't even allow it to be discussed in the shop. LOL

Give me a break!

We are wearing down our LDS owner. The last AOW class that I was involved with the instructor and I used PROPER GEAR (considering Gilboa Quarry temp a month ago) which would be redundant regs and doubles. I believe that is a first for this shop. Tom used to insist that all of his staff use recreational gear. Things are getting better. Oh, BTW, he DID take his Advanced Nitrox even though he had done saturation and planned decompression diving for years. Give store owners credit. They learn.

By the way, the maintenance tech at the shop makes the "tech divers" (which seems to include me) do much of their own equipment maintenance as he has enough to do with everybody else. It saves us money and allows him to work on the gear of the people who will have problems if their equipment acts up. If mine acts up (as I discovered yesterday), I have redundancies on my gear for a reason.

In short, things are getting better!

 

[MikeFerrara]

We are wearing down our LDS owner. The last AOW class that I was involved with the instructor and I used PROPER GEAR (considering Gilboa Quarry temp a month ago) which would be redundant regs and doubles. I believe that is a first for this shop. Tom used to insist that all of his staff use recreational gear. Things are getting better. Oh, BTW, he DID take his Advanced Nitrox even though he had done saturation and planned decompression diving for years. Give store owners credit. They learn.

By the way, the maintenance tech at the shop makes the "tech divers" (which seems to include me) do much of their own equipment maintenance as he has enough to do with everybody else. It saves us money and allows him to work on the gear of the people who will have problems if their equipment acts up. If mine acts up (as I discovered yesterday), I have redundancies on my gear for a reason.

In short, things are getting better!

LOL, If I paid some one else to vis all my tanks and service all our regs it would be like buying a new car every year. ok, that's a little bit of an exaduration but it would several thousand dollars not to mention the fact that none of the shops around here would know how to put my doubles together in the first place.

 

[pipedope]

Why don't you tell us about the dive shops contribution to technical diving. Given that most won't even allow it to be discussed in the shop. LOL

Give me a break!

Wait! I thought you were *****ing about gas prices in FLORIDA?
Last I looked FL is more than 100 miles from ANYWHERE in Indiana.

While we are at it.
Why don't you tell me all of the tech and commercial diving schools and courses that you can get into without a recreational certification?
I still don't buy that rec, tech and commercial DIVING are completely unrelated. ALL of the physics, physiology and major actions and responses are the same. After all, they are all done under pressure.

Give ME a break!

 

[Cave Diver]

I guess the next requirement will be that prospective tech divers must invent and build all of their gear themselves and also develop and validate all procedures used. Heck, next they will have to mine their own gas.

Isn't that how many of the pioneers of tech diving started? Either building their own equipment or modifying existing technology to meet their needs?

Wasn't it many of these same pioneers who developed and validated the procedures used?

Does it seem like such a far stretch that current tekkies should at least be familiar enough with their equipment and procedures that they would have the ability to modify it themselves as the situation calls for? Perhaps that should be set as part of the "criteria" for defining a tech diver as well.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Wait! I thought you were *****ing about gas prices in FLORIDA?

I get good air and nitrox prices in Florida. All the trimix prices I've seen are way too high though and I'll bring my own.

Last I looked FL is more than 100 miles from ANYWHERE in Indiana.

Yes, So?

The point is that in most places I've been technical divers can't rely on shops because most don't do tech and even if they did most technical divers that I know just don't need much from a shop unless it's a teaching job. LOL

While we are at it.
Why don't you tell me all of the tech and commercial diving schools and courses that you can get into without a recreational certification?

Technical sport diving does require a reacreational cert. However, many new technical divers have to learn most everything all over. From the basics of trim, buoyancy control, finning technique, equipment configuration...you name it. Even if an OW cert is required none of the other recreational classes will be of much use.

I don't think you need a recreational cert at all to get into a commercial diving school do you?

I still don't buy that rec, tech and commercial DIVING are completely unrelated. ALL of the physics, physiology and major actions and responses are the same. After all, they are all done under pressure.

Give ME a break!

The water and pressure are about ALL they have in common. In fact responses to problems is where there is a MAJOR difference. In recreational diving, the surface is always your friend. They learn things like ESA's and to look for a lost buddy for a minute and the to meet at the surface. Such responses aren't an option in technical diving.

Do you think it would take significanly less time for me to get through a commercial diving school since I hold about every sport diving cert that there is? I don't.

Does being a recreational instructor get you through technical dive training any faster that some one who holds just an OW cert? No it doesn't.

Except that they all take place under water I see very little in common. In regards to recreational vs. technical sport diving I can tell you from experience that they have little in common.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Isn't that how many of the pioneers of tech diving started? Either building their own equipment or modifying existing technology to meet their needs?

Wasn't it many of these same pioneers who developed and validated the procedures used?

Does it seem like such a far stretch that current tekkies should at least be familiar enough with their equipment and procedures that they would have the ability to modify it themselves as the situation calls for? Perhaps that should be set as part of the "criteria" for defining a tech diver as well.

All very true. The first back plate (like what we use now) was made by a cave diving student and Diverite later started to manufactur them.

Hal Watts I believe gets the credit for the first alternate second stage.

Cave divers were using home made buoyancy control devices before there was anything commercial on the market.

The first manifolds were made by cave divers.
They even made their own reels in the beginning.

For a good over view of the development of some of this stuff there's a good chapter in the NSS-CDS cave diving manual. If I remember right Sheck Exley was the author of that chapter.

I'm unaware of any inovation ever comming from a shop and precious little (though certainly some refinements and mass production) from equipment manufacturers for that matter.

Technical divers figure it out and get it working then others jump in.

 

[pipedope]

Technical sport diving does require a reacreational cert. However, many new technical divers have to learn most everything all over. From the basics of trim, buoyancy control, finning technique, equipment configuration...you name it. Even if an OW cert is required none of the other recreational classes will be of much use.

I don't think you need a recreational cert at all to get into a commercial diving school do you?

Do you think it would take significanly less time for me to get through a commercial diving school since I hold about every sport diving cert that there is? I don't.

I think that the shortcommings of many (if not most) rec divers is a reflection of standards and practices more than any real difference of diving. When I did OW (1978) and AOW (1981), the standards were high and the instruction was to or beyond the standards. Many things were done differently then and while diving has advanced I don't think instruction has.

Actually ALL commercial diving schools require a recreational cert of at least OW before starting classes. Most will also do your OW if you pay more money and show up a week early.

While you would still have to spend the time in commercial diving school you would likely LEARN more and develop more and better skills because of your prior experience. You would be spending your time learning the gear and skills and not so much just getting comfortable in the water. Most tech divers I have met would easily transition to commercial diving, if they wanted to.

The most important thing is the same in both tech and commercial diving, .... THINK, then ACT.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree that the "stop, breath, think and act" is a behavior that applies to not only all diving but many other activities as well.