Deep Air

[Trace Malinowski]

Pro's and Con's of Deep Air Diving

Pro: You have the freedom to make your own choices and decide what risks you are willing to assume.
Con: You may die underwater, but doing what you love. Internet bullies will make fun of you, call you names, and slander your dignity.

Pro's and Con's of Trimix Diving

Pro: You will probably live a very long time and have built up a good reputation for yourself online and within your local diving community.
Con: You'll be able to feel superior to the deep air divers who died underwater as you take your last gasps of breath in a nursing home bed, neglected, alone, covered with your own filth and bed sores, but you'll die with dignity.

Pro's and Con's of Rebreather Diving

Pro: You'll save lots of money on trimix and be doing your part to reduce demand on the world's supply of helium.
Con: That machine will probably kill you, and if your death is due to a mechanical failure rather than pilot error, you get to die doing what you love and with dignity without being slandered on the Internet.

Pro's and Con's of Deep Freediving

Pro: No one really knows if you are doing something safe or not when you are diving, so no one has an opinion.
Con: You'll probably suffer a deep or shallow water blackout and die with little pain doing what you love, but since you aren't a way for divers to enhance their Internet presence, you'll probably be laid to rest peacefully with dignity.

This is what I've learned about deep diving from the Internet.

 

[Thalassamania]

You always have the option to stay home in bed, every time you go into the water it is part of a personal risk/benefit analysis. I have noticed that the current crop of deep divers, who lack the years of slowly working up to ever greater depths on air, are much more risk adverse when it comes to narcosis than are the old hands. I suspect this has to do with the lack of experience controlling narcosis whilst managing the dive at the same time. It is rather interesting that there does appear to be many more deep accidents involving mix divers than I remember having resulted from deep air dives in the old days ... perhaps that's because there are more deep divers, perhaps that's because the pushes are greater and the dives, even without narcosis, are riskier. Perhaps ... ?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

So at 150ft, (under some amount of narcosis), you think you're clear headed. How can an intoxicated individual accurately assess how impaired they are...while they are impaired? The very act of checking yourself is subject to the negative affects of narcosis!

All of this boils down to one thing, and that's saving a buck. You said it yourself. This is like not changing brakes or tires...just cuz its cheaper...

Cause I know what I am like when I am narced. And I definatley know what I am like when drunk.. I do different drills, if anything feels funny I know my dive is OVER.. If you cant do that then maybe diving is not for you. Its sad that you cant tell when you are feeling fuzzy. But I probably did my training different than you. I used baby steps to get there. Some dives to 110 some to 120 and so fourth. I even did my cave dives that way. I did the dives and after a learning curve then I took another step. Not hard to learn from each dive you do.

 

[DCBC]

Perhaps it may be beneficial to try to focus the conversation a bit...

1. Trimix, Heliox and other mixtures

If the gas and gear is available, if the diver is certified to use it and has the money, I don't think anyone on SB would deny that as far as Narcosis is concerned, these mixtures are preferable to use for deep diving.

2. Air

If another gas or appropriate equipment is not available, if the diver is not certified to use another gas, or money is a problem, air will be used.

It may also be worth some clarification on how "Deep" is defined. Perhaps one definition may be derived from recreational diving certifications. Once a new diver is certified, it's recommended that they dive to a maximum depth of 60 or 70 FSW (depending upon the certification body). Most agencies list the maximum depth for recreational diving as 130 FSW. If we accept this, it seems logical to assume that any depth between 70' and 130' is "Deep Air."

I'm not aware of any technical diving agency that promotes diving air beyond this depth, but I'd be interested if anyone else could clarify this. Clearly Air is used for depths past this in the research and commercial fields, but as we are talking recreational diving, I think this definition is as good as any.

Obviously each buddy team has to plan their dive and both divers have to feel right about being able to complete the dive safely. They are free to stop the descent at any time, but should they be experienced enough to do a 130' dive on air, do you think this unsafe?

Would they be safer on Trimix? Perhaps. If it was available, if the diver was trained, yes.

Can they be safe on air? If they have the necessary experience, yes.

Can a dive be accomplished safely on air past 130'? If the diver has the necessary equipment and experience; yes.

Can you personally do these dives on air? Only you can tell.

Could you be trained to do these dives safely on air? Most probably.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This post has been reported as containing potentially dangerous advice. It does not violate the terms of service but moderators feel a SAFETY WARNING is in order.

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A real skindiver can dive deep air, If you think differently you are not a real skindiver. Yea if you go past 250 or 300 you are in a danger zone, and its your choice why your there. Here in the sailish sea ( the new name for puget sound area, not sure on spelling either) Its dark, yet 1 degree warmer than closer to the surface, at 200'. The rapture of the deep is my favorite part, besides decending to that depth. I go head first and love how fast I cruise down to depth, It,s the best thrill a skindiver can have, to kill yourself doing it, thats life. I was married for awhile and my depth to diving was very safe, My wife is a hyperbarics nurse, and I could get instant access if needed, yet I dove on the safe side.
Divorced now, I will dive deep and fast, come up from 220' to a 100' fast, then slow and stay there till I am happy with deco and air obligations. Although I can see why others have concerns over deep air diving, they want to dive deep and live to tell about the experience. I never plan a dive, Every time I slip below the surface its my last dive, funny thing, I have done this thousands of times and I am still here. The divers that die while diving are very lucky divers, they don't have to wash there gear out, wash the boat down, hang and dry gear, go hook the tanks up and fill them for the next dive, then have to be on the surface with society.

You have a choice to make when deep air diving, live or die, it really is that simple. when you are down to 140' next time, get neutral bouyant, lay back, blow bubble rings, close your eyes, keep blowing bubble rings, after ten times see how perfect your bubble rings have gotten. At this point you are in a relaxed state of mind, you have purged your reg several times in a awkward position, your eyes were closed and the narcosis went away, roll over and look at you depth gauge, now your narc is comming back. It never left, you just got comfortably distracted.

On my last dive, on my way back up at 170', I ran into a bullhead and I stopped and petted the guy for awhile, rapture of the deep was at idle, I looked at my computer, was building up some 20' deco time and decided to head to the surface, before I had 30' deco time, and it was party time again till I got to a shallow enough it wore off.

Just enjoy your dive thats what its about.


Happy Diving

 

[DCBC]

A real skindiver can dive deep air, If you think differently you are not a real skindiver. Yea if you go past 250 or 300 you are in a danger zone, and its your choice why your there. Here in the sailish sea ( the new name for puget sound area, not sure on spelling either) Its dark, yet 1 degree warmer than closer to the surface, at 200'. The rapture of the deep is my favorite part, besides decending to that depth. I go head first and love how fast I cruise down to depth, It,s the best thrill a skindiver can have, to kill yourself doing it, thats life. I was married for awhile and my depth to diving was very safe, My wife is a hyperbarics nurse, and I could get instant access if needed, yet I dove on the safe side.
Divorced now, I will dive deep and fast, come up from 220' to a 100' fast, then slow and stay there till I am happy with deco and air obligations. Although I can see why others have concerns over deep air diving, they want to dive deep and live to tell about the experience. I never plan a dive, Every time I slip below the surface its my last dive, funny thing, I have done this thousands of times and I am still here. The divers that die while diving are very lucky divers, they don't have to wash there gear out, wash the boat down, hang and dry gear, go hook the tanks up and fill them for the next dive, then have to be on the surface with society.

You have a choice to make when deep air diving, live or die, it really is that simple. when you are down to 140' next time, get neutral bouyant, lay back, blow bubble rings, close your eyes, keep blowing bubble rings, after ten times see how perfect your bubble rings have gotten. At this point you are in a relaxed state of mind, you have purged your reg several times in a awkward position, your eyes were closed and the narcosis went away, roll over and look at you depth gauge, now your narc is comming back. It never left, you just got comfortably distracted.

On my last dive, on my way back up at 170', I ran into a bullhead and I stopped and petted the guy for awhile, rapture of the deep was at idle, I looked at my computer, was building up some 20' deco time and decided to head to the surface, before I had 30' deco time, and it was party time again till I got to a shallow enough it wore off.

Your on drugs, right?

 

[rjack321]

It may also be worth some clarification on how "Deep" is defined. Perhaps one definition may be derived from recreational diving certifications. Once a new diver is certified, it's recommended that they dive to a maximum depth of 60 or 70 FSW (depending upon the certification body). Most agencies list the maximum depth for recreational diving as 130 FSW. If we accept this, it seems logical to assume that any depth between 70' and 130' is "Deep Air."

I'm not aware of any technical diving agency that promotes diving air beyond this depth, but I'd be interested if anyone else could clarify this. Clearly Air is used for depths past this in the research and commercial fields, but as we are talking recreational diving, I think this definition is as good as any.

At the very least the following agencies use and promote air (for various dives/circumstances) beyond 130ft:
IANTD
TDI
PSAI
DSAT

These agencies do not:
NAUI-tech
GUE
UTD

not an exhaustive list. I don't know CMAS standards etc.

 

[Diver0001]

At the very least the following agencies use and promote air (for various dives/circumstances) beyond 130ft:

If you're using the word "promote" to mean "doesn't condemn" then yeah. I've done the IANTD deep thingy and there was no "promotion" going on. Just a realistic handling of how it is.

I can't answer with certainty to CMAS but from the little I do know, I doubt that they would be strongly opposed to deep air.

R..

 

[Thalassamania]

While not an "agency" per se, you can include the American Academy of Underwater Sciences as another organization that includes dives on air between 130 and 190 as part of their protocols.

 

[TSandM]

I've read the whole thread.

I think it comes down to what so many things come down to -- how do you assess risk on any given dive? And what is the risk worth to you?

Over and over, people refer to sites which are remote, where helium is not available or is "prohibitively" expensive. (I put it in quotation marks, because prohibitively is a relative term.) Well, there is always the option not to dive there. If you do, what you have decided is that your drive to do that dive, for whatever reasons you are doing it (because you want to set records, because you want to be the first on an unknown wreck, because you are like VDGM and don't care about the risks) exceeds your assessment of the risks involved.

The sad part of that is that sometimes, people simply aren't informed or experienced enough to know what the bargain was that they made. I fear that was the case with the fatality in Monterey.

Sometimes, people MAKE those decisions, and lose the toss. I think the Rouses come under that category. People left on land mourn those people.

In Sheck's day, people seriously pushed the edge of the envelope, and some of them lost the wager. I remember reading in one of his books about two folks who went down with him on one of his deep OW dives, to the 400+ foot level, and basically lost consciousness, either from CO2 or N2. He survived; they did not. There will ALWAYS be pioneers who die, in any extreme endeavor. (Although, I have to inject that the WKPP has an amazing safety record for the kind of way-off-the-edge dives they do.)

But most of us dive for fun. We dive to see cool things, and unlike VDGM, we really expect to come home every night and kiss our spouses (and children, if you like children ) and go out tomorrow and do it again. If that's the case for you, then risk assessment has to have a sharper focus, and you have to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I know mine. I'm farm animal stupid below 100 feet on air. I've proven it to myself and to my instructors. I do go down there, but not on air or Nitrox. My recent experience with not having the option proved the wisdom of my decision. Not everyone else will make the same evaluation, and probably not everyone else has the same reaction to narcosis that I do, or the same degree of risk-aversion. But to say that diving without helium to significant depths is not without increased risk in comparison to trimix or shallower dives, is to disregard the available information on this subject, IMHO.