Popeye
Contributor
If that's all you've got, then we're done here.
Deep Air survey
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If that's all you've got, then we're done here.
I don't need anything else. When I do a deep dive I am narcosis free with redundant equipment and plenty of good deco gas. I am comfy with that.
Why is it again that you think divers should do 150 on air?
What is deep air 130, 120, 140 deeper? The tests, studies and theories are available to everyone yet some insist it doesnt apply to them. Some think they can predict the effect of narcosis. One of the most often given reasons for not using mix is cost of training, gas or equipment. I of course know divers who claim they dont need trimix for anything shallower than 200 ft. They have survived many dives so they could be believed. Except for what Ive seen
I had a student taking a PADI Deep Diver course (I no longer teach this course BTW). The plan was simple. We were to descend the trapeze (on the deep side of Gilboa). He was to pick up the heading I had given him to get us to the truck a short distance away. Once at the truck the plan was to make a quick loop around the truck after which he would get on a reciprocal course and take us back to the trapeze where we would ascend do a safety stop and call it a dive. The bottom is about 125. The water is about 40 deg F and the vis was maybe 30 feet. After our loop around the truck rather than set a reciprocal he gets on the wrong heading and heads the wrong direction (in a hurry). The heading took him into the back of the cove (only about 30 ft away) where the wall stopped us. He turned from the wall picked up a seemingly random heading out into the lake. At this point I stopped him and asked him to check his heading. He flashed a confused looking ok did some meaningless fidgeting with his gear and headed off at another totally wrong direction in a fast and agitated manor breathing heavily. I stopped the exercise and asked him to check his air. More confused looks. I checked his air and seeing he was nearing our ascent pressure I took him by the arm and started a slow ascent along the wall. Once out of the water he tells me that the reason he couldnt get on the correct heading is because his HP hose was hooked on something (I dont remember what) preventing him from getting the console out in front of him making it impossible to get on the correct heading. I asked how long it took him to spot the problem up shallow and he said he saw it right away. I asked why he couldnt figure it out on the bottom and he couldnt answer. This diver had a bunch of 100/110 ft dives under his belt with over 100 dives total and had never had a problem. This dive was only a few feet deeper than others he had done and he wouldnt accept that narcosis might have played a role. I also would not have taken him on the dive if I didnt think he was ready with good solid basic skills. In the coming weeks he came to the conclusion that he was not only suffering from narcosis he wasnt thinking anything useful at all. Before this dive this diver would have laughed at the suggestion that he would have trouble at that depth. After the dive he did everything he could to rationalize what happened trying to convince himself that the problem had been something else.
Unfortunately injuries at Gilboa are not uncommon. I myself have witnessed 4 or 5 ambulance runs and several near misses. There was one fatality last year and there have been several others in past years. I think others have been narced at Gilboa. My bet is that none of those divers will admit the problems they had. In some cases I know that for a fact. Surely narcosis isnt the only cause. I have talked a lot about the other probable causes on this board.
I have lots of other accounts if anyone is interested.
I had a student taking a PADI Deep Diver course (I no longer teach this course BTW). The plan was simple. We were to descend the trapeze (on the deep side of Gilboa). He was to pick up the heading I had given him to get us to the truck a short distance away. Once at the truck the plan was to make a quick loop around the truck after which he would get on a reciprocal course and take us back to the trapeze where we would ascend do a safety stop and call it a dive. The bottom is about 125. The water is about 40 deg F and the vis was maybe 30 feet. After our loop around the truck rather than set a reciprocal he gets on the wrong heading and heads the wrong direction (in a hurry). The heading took him into the back of the cove (only about 30 ft away) where the wall stopped us. He turned from the wall picked up a seemingly random heading out into the lake. At this point I stopped him and asked him to check his heading. He flashed a confused looking ok did some meaningless fidgeting with his gear and headed off at another totally wrong direction in a fast and agitated manor breathing heavily. I stopped the exercise and asked him to check his air. More confused looks. I checked his air and seeing he was nearing our ascent pressure I took him by the arm and started a slow ascent along the wall. Once out of the water he tells me that the reason he couldnt get on the correct heading is because his HP hose was hooked on something (I dont remember what) preventing him from getting the console out in front of him making it impossible to get on the correct heading. I asked how long it took him to spot the problem up shallow and he said he saw it right away. I asked why he couldnt figure it out on the bottom and he couldnt answer. This diver had a bunch of 100/110 ft dives under his belt with over 100 dives total and had never had a problem. This dive was only a few feet deeper than others he had done and he wouldnt accept that narcosis might have played a role. I also would not have taken him on the dive if I didnt think he was ready with good solid basic skills. In the coming weeks he came to the conclusion that he was not only suffering from narcosis he wasnt thinking anything useful at all. Before this dive this diver would have laughed at the suggestion that he would have trouble at that depth. After the dive he did everything he could to rationalize what happened trying to convince himself that the problem had been something else.
Unfortunately injuries at Gilboa are not uncommon. I myself have witnessed 4 or 5 ambulance runs and several near misses. There was one fatality last year and there have been several others in past years. I think others have been narced at Gilboa. My bet is that none of those divers will admit the problems they had. In some cases I know that for a fact. Surely narcosis isnt the only cause. I have talked a lot about the other probable causes on this board.
I have lots of other accounts if anyone is interested.
I'm interested in the story (or a link to the story) about that recent fatality you mentioned at the quarry.
I'm also intrested in knowing why you stopped teaching the PADI deep diver course - because you believe that diving between 100ft and 130ft on air is unsound and dangerous, or simply because of problems you've had with students like the example you gave?
I'm also intrested in knowing why you stopped teaching the PADI deep diver course - because you believe that diving between 100ft and 130ft on air is unsound and dangerous, or simply because of problems you've had with students like the example you gave?
Popeye
Contributor
"When I do a deep dive I am narcosis free"
Wow.
Because they can?
Because they do every day?
Or because tens of thousands of divers have done it millions of times for decades?
Or basically, because, not everyone suffers your level of incapacitation?
Help yourself.
You can do a search on the board for the Gilboa accident. There was a good bit of discussion about it and some links. I don't know if the links will still be good or not.
I don't market the PADI deep diver course because PADI and I don't agree on what should be includen in the class. When folks want to go deeper I recommend the IANTD Deep Diver course and better yet the Deep Diver/Advanced Nitrox combination.
The way I see it if your going to go to 130 ft where time is very limited and so is gas supply (with common recreational gear) why not introduce some decompression theory beyond doin a 15 ft safety stop. I never enjoyed a 130 ft dive untill I was packing a little more gas and was comfortable with a few minutes if deco. The IANTD introduces new (to most recreational divers) skills that are of real value in making the diver more capable at depth.
In the Caribbean you might do a 130 and stair step your way up and get a decent dive but do a 130 on a wreck and you don't hardly have enough time to leave the down line with a single 80 within no stop limits. I never cared for going to 130 with a small gas supply, no redundancy and only 10 minutes before the world comes to an end.
130 is considered by many to be the recreational limit. I'm not so much of a fanatic to think that nobody can manage the slight narcosis there is on air at 130 but I sure have seen some thrown by a loop by it. Combine a little bit of narcosis with some CO2 build up brought on by poor buoyancy control (we have cold water and folks are in heavy wet suits that compress to nothing at those depths making the diver heavy and usually poorly trimmed) with some time presure and you can have problems and even if you don't you likely won't have much fun.
Deepish dives on air...
I am of course well aware of the dives that are done all over the world on air. I have gone through the learning curve of getting used to doing my local 140 ft hole on air. Just like you can learn to efficiently unlock your fron door on a drunk friday night you can learn to do some tasks under the influence of narcosis. Does that mean you can make decisions or think your way through a new problem? Certainly we can learn to feel comfortable at a given depth in a given environment but does that really mean we are becomming more capable. I think I can perform a valve shutdown as fast at 180 as I can at 50 (almost anyway). However valve shutdowns don't require much thought.
If YOU do some research I think you will find that rote skills can be adapted while thinking skills CAN'T. A drunk feels like he can take on the whole bar and some divers thing they are fit deep on air. I have never seen any proof that they are fit to think. If someone can show some evidence I would love to see it. I think divers get away with it because they are lucky enough to not have to think.
And then there is the learning curve to get used to and comfortable. Even if it gets you through part of the hurdles the learning curve is a danger are. Reference my report above. That diver went on to do that dive very well but what if he had done the first one without help? What if it had been 140 or 160? What if he had another problem to go with his already flustered state? What if he was in the open sea where it was a big deal to not be able to find his way back instead of in a quarry where you can surface anywhere without a problem?What if there was a little He in the mix and it felt like a 70 ft dive even though he might be at 150 or whatever?
For these divers that say they are AS good to this or that depth, I say show me! You show me some evidence! Your not the ones leaning toward the "safe"/conservative side. The burden of proof is on you! Neither Popeye or others have shown any proof at all that what they say is true. But then again are they saying anything at all. They just say I do it because I can. I hope that if their 150 air dive ever really gets squirly they can manage it but there are those who haven't even if I don't carry a list of their names with me and even if the medical report doesn't list narcosis as the cause of death.
Deep (recreational deep) does figure promenantly in the DAN accident report. Maybe narcosis or CO2 retention has something to do with it. NARCOSIS or CO2 retention can't possibly make a dive any better or safer. It's all rationalization with nothing to gain.
I am of course well aware of the dives that are done all over the world on air. I have gone through the learning curve of getting used to doing my local 140 ft hole on air. Just like you can learn to efficiently unlock your fron door on a drunk friday night you can learn to do some tasks under the influence of narcosis. Does that mean you can make decisions or think your way through a new problem? Certainly we can learn to feel comfortable at a given depth in a given environment but does that really mean we are becomming more capable. I think I can perform a valve shutdown as fast at 180 as I can at 50 (almost anyway). However valve shutdowns don't require much thought.
If YOU do some research I think you will find that rote skills can be adapted while thinking skills CAN'T. A drunk feels like he can take on the whole bar and some divers thing they are fit deep on air. I have never seen any proof that they are fit to think. If someone can show some evidence I would love to see it. I think divers get away with it because they are lucky enough to not have to think.
And then there is the learning curve to get used to and comfortable. Even if it gets you through part of the hurdles the learning curve is a danger are. Reference my report above. That diver went on to do that dive very well but what if he had done the first one without help? What if it had been 140 or 160? What if he had another problem to go with his already flustered state? What if he was in the open sea where it was a big deal to not be able to find his way back instead of in a quarry where you can surface anywhere without a problem?What if there was a little He in the mix and it felt like a 70 ft dive even though he might be at 150 or whatever?
For these divers that say they are AS good to this or that depth, I say show me! You show me some evidence! Your not the ones leaning toward the "safe"/conservative side. The burden of proof is on you! Neither Popeye or others have shown any proof at all that what they say is true. But then again are they saying anything at all. They just say I do it because I can. I hope that if their 150 air dive ever really gets squirly they can manage it but there are those who haven't even if I don't carry a list of their names with me and even if the medical report doesn't list narcosis as the cause of death.
Deep (recreational deep) does figure promenantly in the DAN accident report. Maybe narcosis or CO2 retention has something to do with it. NARCOSIS or CO2 retention can't possibly make a dive any better or safer. It's all rationalization with nothing to gain.
Here we half-agree. I think that for the "average diver" the limits are actually too loose. I do not consider divers that are regularly doing 130-150 foot dives average. The average diver does "Coz" twice a year and never gets out of the control of the divemaster. If the average diver were to go to 150 we'd have about a 50% fatality rate.
I do agree though that the deep air incident rate is over-stated, primarily for the reasons stated above.
Correct, I do agree, to a point
. I also feel that trimix significantly enhances the safety and enjoyment of these dives too.I asked this same question of a friend of mine shortly before I got my mix training when he wouldn't let me go on a trip he organized because I was on air. The answer he gave me is the one I will give you: Because we have to draw the line somewhere.
Some folks carry things too far.
Ask Rob Palmer, Archie Forfar, Ann Gunderson, and many others, whose names don't spring to mind, where he is. I've seen him myself. Click here for a little story I wrote about a deep air dive that went off the wire.
I did deep air for years, I thought nothing of punching down to 200, 250, or more. The dive described in the story was not my last deep air dive but it was the last one that I started out thinking of as routine.
I know all about the economic reasons for doing it. I held out a long time. The thing that finally forced me into mix was that nobody would let me dive with them any more. I found/made the money to get it done and haven't regretted a single dollar of it.
Yea, that's one of the ideas under consideration. Thanks again for your kind words about my work. It means more than you know.
WW
20 ft deeper can make all the difference. The gear is part of what gets it done and it's not the class or the card it's the skills. ok you need the card to buy the gas, sorry.
Sometimes dives should be passed up. We must all live within our means (or at least close). There are some things that you can't do if you can't afford it. There are other things that you might get away with doing.
A few dives a year going to 150 sounds like a shoe-in for the next DAN accident report.
BTW, Popeye your profile says your trimix qualified why not use it? Did you do your trimix training with the single 95?
Why does the suggestion to not do a dive that one may not be prepared fore get you going?
If you choose to take additional risk to do a dive that's your business. To rationalize it in public where it might help convince someone else to cut the same corners is IMO irresponsible. If that's what you want to do then do it but don't take anybody else with you!
Mike, have you had some kind of problem at Gilboa that makes you so down on the place? You certainly seem to dive there a lot. And you don't seem to have a problem with having your PADI instructor credentials listed on their website.
Three fatalities, in all the years I can remember diving there. One was probably a murder, but I am sure you can tell that story much better than I. Last year's was a very overweight gentleman in poor physical condition and was probably a heart attack. At least one other squad run was a heart attack as the gentleman consequently underwent bypass surgery.
Other stories?
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