Deep Air survey

[Popeye]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
I dove deep air for years, up until about a year ago. For the longest time there were no alternatives, if you wanted to dive deep, you dove air, later it was a financial issue for me. I've seen 300 on air, sub-200 many many times.

Now, I don't dive air at all, ever. Its simply not the optimum gas for any depth.

We all dove deep air once, the survivors now dive helium.
WW

WW, I see your point, for 220, or 300.

But do you really feel full timix training is necessary for the Bibb?

Hole-in-the-Wall?

The Playground at West Palm?

Warm water, high vis drift dives at 150?

It's statements like: "the survivors now dive helium."

That cloud the issue.

Love the book, BTW.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


1. Be trained in cavern or cave diving and dive within the limitations of your training.
2. Always run a single continous guideline from the enterance of the cave.
3. Always reserve AT LEAST 2/3's of your starting air for the trip out of the cave.
4. For cave divers, properly equiped and trained, never dive below 130'. For cavern divers, properly eqipped and trained, never dive below 70'
5. Have at least 3 seperate light sources per diver. For cavern divers these are the sun and at least 2 battery-powered lights. All lights should have a burn time greated than the planned length of the dive.

Your rules relate directly to cave and cavern diving.

You, yourself have adopted them to OW diving, which you should make clear.

Do you think air is better for a deep dive on a wreck or in OW than it is in a cave? Maybe nitrogen and CO2 have less of an effect in those environments.

If rule #4 relates to ENDs as you espouse, what's up with 70ft?

Don't know where the 70 ft came from

Your post was innacurate and inflamatory.

No it wasn't I just can't find the book. However from what I understand the incedent is the reason that Mystery Sink was closed to diving (2 deaths and a bad case of DCS in a few days). As much as you know about Hal Watts I'm suprised you aren't aware of the dives

If -you- feel the need to post such things, because your arguments have to rely on scare tactics and sullying the reputation of others, then -you- need to be prepared to cite your story.

It's not my job to prove the theories of others, particularly when I don't agree with them.

Furthermore, I don't feel that citing accidents with unknown parameters from a third of a century ago is relevent to the discussion we're having.

What went on 1/3 of a century ago is very relevant. That's how we learned

How about sharing some modern deep air statistics with us?

Not only has deep air killed many divers but many were the leading divers at the time. Their names and the cercumstances of their death are well documented

Even George Irvine can only come up with about 1.5 deaths a year for the last three decades, where are all your "many who tried and couldn't" accounts?

That relate to recreational diving?

deep anything doesn't apply to recreational diving.

Such was the purpose of my original post. I don't consider a death at 300-900 ft a deep air death. I consider it Darwinism. But neither do I feel the same argument exists for diving 135 ft, as diving 300 ft.

Is 135 ft what we were talking about?

Mike, it's not a non-issue.

First, trimix training and gear is prohibitavely expensive for many.

What additional gear is required for mix? Training is cheap compared to charters and travel.

If you intend to routinely dive in excess of 150ft, most would consider it a necessary evil.



But if you dive "Hole-in-the-wall" in Jupiter, 140fsw, a common tourist destination, it's a total waste of money.

Secondly, if helium is such a cure-all, how come deaths on the Doria were virtually non-existent during the air era, but commonplace now, with mix?

check your history again! I believe at least one of the boats that frequents the Dorea now requires you to be mix qualified regarless of what you choose to dive. A bunch of divers died on the Dorea diving air. This is a blatantly false statement.

Divers should make their own assesment of their needs, from an educated position.

Educated doesn't mean redoing the trial and error that has already been done does it?

They shouldn't arbitrarily adopt your restrictions, that you arbitrarily adopted from someone else.

I don't put restrictions on anyone. I have gone deep enough on air and know first hand what it's like. I don't arbitrarily do anything in diving

 

[WreckWriter]

Popeye once bubbled...


WW, I see your point, for 220, or 300.

But do you really feel full timix training is necessary for the Bibb?

Hole-in-the-Wall?

The Playground at West Palm?

Warm water, high vis drift dives at 150?

It's statements like: "the survivors now dive helium."

That cloud the issue.

Love the book, BTW.

For the dives you mention, no, not really necessary but certainly desirable. When I use the term "deep" I'm generally thinking below 150'.

I've seen people narced to the point of stupor at 100'. I don't believe my statement clouds the issue, I think its true.

I'm glad you enjoyed the book

WW

 

[Popeye]

Popeye once bubbled... ...

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Popeye once bubbled...

1. Be trained in cavern or cave diving and dive within the limitations of your training.
2. Always run a single continous guideline from the enterance of the cave.
3. Always reserve AT LEAST 2/3's of your starting air for the trip out of the cave.
4. For cave divers, properly equiped and trained, never dive below 130'. For cavern divers, properly eqipped and trained, never dive below 70'
5. Have at least 3 seperate light sources per diver. For cavern divers these are the sun and at least 2 battery-powered lights. All lights should have a burn time greated than the planned length of the dive.

Your rules relate directly to cave and cavern diving.

You, yourself have adopted them to OW diving, which you should make clear.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Do you think air is better for a deep dive on a wreck or in OW than it is in a cave? Maybe nitrogen and CO2 have less of an effect in those environments.

Are you stating that narcosis doesn't vary with dive condition, among many other factors?

Or that OW divers should carry three lights and a line?

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If rule #4 relates to ENDs as you espouse, what's up with 70ft?

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Don't know where the 70 ft came from

Hey, it's your cite. Are you saying that you can't explain what you profess, and then later on in this post tell me you don't do anything arbitrarily?

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Your post was innacurate and inflamatory.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
No it wasn't I just can't find the book. However from what I understand the incedent is the reason that Mystery Sink was closed to diving (2 deaths and a bad case of DCS in a few days). As much as you know about Hal Watts I'm suprised you aren't aware of the dives

I am aware of the dives, which is why I continue to call you on your inaccurate version, which you offer as validation of your position.

Pretty shabby tactics, all the way around.

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If -you- feel the need to post such things, because your arguments have to rely on scare tactics and sullying the reputation of others, then -you- need to be prepared to cite your story.

It's not my job to prove the theories of others, particularly when I don't agree with them.

Furthermore, I don't feel that citing accidents with unknown parameters from a third of a century ago is relevent to the discussion we're having.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
What went on 1/3 of a century ago is very relevant. That's how we learned

Yet you can't offer an accurate recounting of it. How accurate, then, are the assumptions you gleened from this information? Face it, you have precious little information on which you base your assumptions. You make grand, sweeping statments (like the one directly below) about all these deep air incidents, yet you can't even cite a handfull over several decades. You simply have no coherent argument to offer, vis a vis deep air diving and the recreational diver.

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How about sharing some modern deep air statistics with us?

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Not only has deep air killed many divers but many were the leading divers at the time. Their names and the cercumstances of their death are well documented

How about sharing just a few with us, say, 5 in the same year? Since deep air has killed so "many"?

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Even George Irvine can only come up with about 1.5 deaths a year for the last three decades, where are all your "many who tried and couldn't" accounts?

That relate to recreational diving?

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
deep anything doesn't apply to recreational diving.

So you're saying that recreational divers have no need for helium, or worry of narcosis?

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Such was the purpose of my original post. I don't consider a death at 300-900 ft a deep air death. I consider it Darwinism. But neither do I feel the same argument exists for diving 135 ft, as diving 300 ft.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Is 135 ft what we were talking about?

Sure, according to your argument, there's <130, and >130. That means, according to you, full trimix training is required for any dive past 130, a rediculous notion. Some would even argue that helium should be used past 80 ft.

Your own "5 rules of accident analysis" make some vague reference to 70ft.

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Mike, it's not a non-issue.

First, trimix training and gear is prohibitavely expensive for many.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
What additional gear is required for mix? Training is cheap compared to charters and travel.

That's not for you to decide on behalf of others. I can dive Hole-in-the-wall, at 140, on nitrox, as thousands have.

I don't need a $1000 c-card $30 tank of gas to do it. Some may chose to.

There are a host of regular >130 tourist dives that don't require trimix (and you can't get it anyway).

And what gear do you require for your trimix class? What gear do you recommend? A single tank AL80 with a single regulator?

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Secondly, if helium is such a cure-all, how come deaths on the Doria were virtually non-existent during the air era, but commonplace now, with mix?

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
check your history again! I believe at least one of the boats that frequents the Dorea now requires you to be mix qualified regarless of what you choose to dive. A bunch of divers died on the Dorea diving air. This is a blatantly false statement.

Then why have more divers died on the Andrea Doria in the last ten years, then the previous 37 years?

Your statement "All it takes is a little He and it's a nonissue" is the only blatently false statement here.

And by the way, about your trimix requirement:

"Posted by MHK on November 06, 2000 at 10:53:00:

In Reply to: Re: Open Letter to MHK posted by JR Gordon on November 03, 2000 at 16:21:55:

John and Max,

Let me add a few things about the above.. Max you are 100% wrong about the boats back east.. They only require that you have a Trimix certification card, they could care less what actual gas you dive. In fact, Danny's very publicly stated position is that he is merely a taxi driver. He only requires a trimix cert because his insurance carrier made him do it. The very fact of the matter is that they let people dive air, solo, homemade rebreather's and any thing else you want all the time..snip"

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Divers should make their own assesment of their needs, from an educated position.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Educated doesn't mean redoing the trial and error that has already been done does it?

That's not your decision to make, for others. You accept arbitrary rules and methods, based on exaggeration, hearsay, and anecdote, and expect others to. Sorry.

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They shouldn't arbitrarily adopt your restrictions, that you arbitrarily adopted from someone else.

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't put restrictions on anyone. I have gone deep enough on air and know first hand what it's like. I don't arbitrarily do anything in diving

Your argument is full of holes, Mike. Come up with some factual and coherent information about deep air, and I'll be the first one to listen. Keep spouting someone else's inaccurate party line, and it offers nothing.

Most of all, don't tell me I don't have the right or need to educate myself, and that I should just listen to you (metaphorically speaking) without question.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye,

The original reason I mentioned the Hal Watts dives was to illustrate that he also has had and seen problems associated with diving deep on air. That's all and I doubt that he would deny it. In fact he tells some of the stories himself.

I provided references to where the rules of accident analysis could be found because you asked what they were and where they come from.

I am not supporting any position at all other than my original statement that there is a reason depth is addressed in those rules. There are reasons. Do you deny that? Do you deny the validaty of those rules? Is your position that because some are specific to a cave that the others wouldn't apply in other environments?

What is your point here? One minute your talking deep diving and then your talking about trimix classes with single tanks. Do you do 150 ft drift dives in a single 80?

You said
"And what gear do you require for your trimix class? What gear do you recommend? A single tank AL80 with a single regulator?"

I don't teach trimix. The gear requirements are well known? A single 80 with a single reg is not what I would recomend for any "deep dive".

 

[Pez de Diablo]

My comfort zone brings me to 165' on air. At 190' I feel as if I am looking through coke bottles and this is the deepest I have dove.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...



Your argument is full of holes, Mike. Come up with some factual and coherent information about deep air, and I'll be the first one to listen. Keep spouting someone else's inaccurate party line, and it offers nothing.

Most of all, don't tell me I don't have the right or need to educate myself, and that I should just listen to you (metaphorically speaking) without question.

It isn't my argument. There have been many studies that should have been presented to you in your training concerning the effects of narcosis, Co2 and O2 at depth. The fact that those effects have contributed to accidents is well documented. You can call it hearsay or whatever you want. You can ignore it if you want. You can continue to suggest that I made it all up and that it isn't valid because you don't like it. I didn't tell you anything about what your rights are.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Popeye,
The original reason I mentioned the Hal Watts dives was to illustrate that he also has had and seen problems associated with diving deep on air. That's all and I doubt that he would deny it. In fact he tells some of the stories himself.

No, Mike, the reason you mentioned Hal Watts was to be derisive and belittling.

I said:
"The vast majority of the worlds' divers have been and still do use deep air. Probably the most intelligent point of view on deep air comes from Hal Watts, who encourages divers to learn their own personal limits, and make no assumptions."

You said:
"I think Hal Watts has had some real adventures that might not have been so adventurous if everyone wasn't narced out of their mind."

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I provided references to where the rules of accident analysis could be found because you asked what they were and where they come from. I am not supporting any position at all other than my original statement that there is a reason depth is addressed in those rules. There are reasons. Do you deny that? Do you deny the validaty of those rules? Is your position that because some are specific to a cave that the others wouldn't apply in other environments?

I'm still waiting for you to explain the "reasons" you cite, which you haven't.

In fact, you can't even explain all the 5 rules you authoritatively cite.

Nore can you cite even a few of the "many" deep air deaths you repeatedly mention.

This leads to me stating that you arbitrarily follow standards.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
What is your point here? One minute your talking deep diving and then your talking about trimix classes with single tanks. Do you do 150 ft drift dives in a single 80?

I do them on a single 95. As to my point, I suggest you re-read my original post, since you've already commented extensively on it.

As to trimix class on single tanks, that was your revelation, not mine, as shown below.

I said:
"And what gear do you require for your trimix class? What gear do you recommend? A single tank AL80 with a single regulator?"

I don't teach trimix. The gear requirements are well known? A single 80 with a single reg is not what I would recomend for any "deep dive".

I said:
First, trimix training and gear is prohibitavely expensive for many.

You said:
What additional gear is required for mix?

So is additional gear required for a trimix class, or not?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


No, Mike, the reason you mentioned Hal Watts was to be derisive and belittling.

Who are you to tell me what my intentions were?

I said:
"The vast majority of the worlds' divers have been and still do use deep air. Probably the most intelligent point of view on deep air comes from Hal Watts, who encourages divers to learn their own personal limits, and make no assumptions."

That is a good reason LOL

You said:
"I think Hal Watts has had some real adventures that might not have been so adventurous if everyone wasn't narced out of their mind."

Ask Mr. Watts. I think you'll find it's true. Do you think anyone can go to those depths on air without narcosis?

I'm still waiting for you to explain the "reasons" you cite, which you haven't.

In fact, you can't even explain all the 5 rules you authoritatively cite.

Nore can you cite even a few of the "many" deep air deaths you repeatedly mention.

This leads to me stating that you arbitrarily follow standards.

The rules of accident analysis are explained well in the texts I referenced, Read them, if you have a specific question I'll try to help. Starting from the beginning would just be redundant. There have been many deep air deaths. I could put together a list for you but why? The info is available. Are you saying there haven't been any?

As to trimix class on single tanks, that was your revelation, not mine, as shown below.




So is additional gear required for a trimix class, or not?

I said I didn't recommend a single 80 with a single reg for any deep dive and I don't.

Additional gear from what starting point? If you are equipmed to do those 150ft dives (defined as the required equipment for those depths as outlined by any agency I know of) You would have about everything needed except the gas.

 

[Popeye]

WreckWriter once bubbled...

For the dives you mention, no, not really necessary but certainly desirable. When I use the term "deep" I'm generally thinking below 150'.

That was my original point. "What is deep air?"

IMHO, arbitrary limits are too penalizing on the average diver, and the deep air incident rate is sensationally over-stated.

I can think of several dives past 130 that don't require Trimix, which you would, to a point, agree.

I can think of more than few 130 ft dives I'd never do on air.

When you're a trimix diver, looking back, it's easy to say that trimix should be used on any END past 130, but when you're rec diver looking forward, it's a pretty big step to commit to.

Classes and gear $XXXX to go twenty feet deeper?

When you're looking at a few dives a year, and a max depth of 150, it's really hard to justify.

The next thing the Trimx guys say is "well, then don't do those dives",

And -that's- what gets me going.

My point says "why do we set the same standards on a 131 ft WW drift dive, as we do a penetration of the Andrea Doria?"

(I actually had a guy in Jupiter tell me you should be cave certified to do HITW. )

I've seen people narced to the point of stupor at 100'. I don't believe my statement clouds the issue, I think its true.

And I've seen people clear headed at 150, which is why training, education and experience are the answer, not arbitrary rules.

People point to the deep air boogie man, and I'm having trouble finding him.

When I ask, I'm told, "can't you see him, he's -everywhere-..."

I'm glad you enjoyed the book

WW

Worth it's weight in gold.

Makes each dive much more enjoyable, if you didn't know.

Have you considered doing one about -all- the tourist wrecks (common destinations) in the Keys, like the Busch and the T-bolt?

10 most popular, 15 most popular, like that?