Deep Air survey
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Who other than GUE?
There are reasons why one of the 5 rules of accident analysis is to maintain an END < 130 ft.
I think Hal Watts has had some real adventures that might not have been so adventurous if everyone wasn't narced out of their mind.
Popeye
Contributor
NAUI
Why?
And what are the 5 rules? Where did they originate? I've heard you mention them, but have never heard of them before.
That's a pretty cheap shot at someone who's credentials as a diver, diving instructor and instructor trainer eclipse yours and are argualby second to none in the scuba diving industry world wide.
That sure reflects on -your- credibility.
The five rules of accident analysis were first outlined in "Basic Cave Diving a Blueprint for Survival" by Sheck Exley. The book uses specific incedents and their analysis to derive the rules that cave divers have since used to avoid their fates. The rules are (in my own words)
Dive within your training
Have a continuous guide line to the surface (for overheads)
Use the rule of thirds for gas management
Have three lights per diver
Don't dive deeper than 130 ft (now days usually modified to mean END rather than actual depth)
Each of these rules is there because not following it caused someones death. Diving deep on air introduces or complicates the problems of narcosis, CO2 retantion and oxygen toxicity. They also feed on each other. CO2 retention is made worse by the denseity of air at depth and is thought to predispose one to O2 toxicity. CO2 and nitrogen are thought to have a sinergistic narcosis effect. I may not have used the right term there but the point is CO2 makes narcosis worse.
I don't dispute the contributions Hal Watts has made. at least one source even credits him for being the first to use an alternate second stage. He is well known for the deep air records he and divers trained by him have held. It is also well known that a good number of divers have died in pursuit of these records. As far as the adventures I mentioned I hesitated to recite specifics because they are detailed in a number of publications and I would be speaking from memory. The most notable incedent I am aware of is outlined in (Ithink it was) "Caverns Measurless to Man" by Sheck Exley. From memory (please don't anyone sue me if I have details wrong and by all means look it up yourself) Mr. watts conducted a deep dive with a student (who I think was like 16 years old) to recover a lost (don't remember what). The dive was a CF. They were seperated and Mr. Watts returned alone. This was in the days before trimix was in common use. Mr. Watts made a Heliox dive to recover the body and was severely bent.
I have been lucky enough to have the chance to meet and speak with Mr. Watts and he is a real nice guy and certainly an interesting personality. In fact he took an interest when my wife and I were diving at his place with an instructor who he obviously didn't think much of (the instructor never got in the water). He invested a couple hours nudging us into getting other training. If you haven't and you get the chance ask him about diving deep air and how he justifies diving with PPo2 well above what anyone recommends. It is very interesting and he has proved he can (or could) do it. Many others proved they couldn't. Saying he is second to none in the diving industry would certainly elicit arguments from many many people and it has nothing to do with my credibility. The fact that his credentials eclipse credentials don't make diving deep on air any safer.
Dive within your training
Have a continuous guide line to the surface (for overheads)
Use the rule of thirds for gas management
Have three lights per diver
Don't dive deeper than 130 ft (now days usually modified to mean END rather than actual depth)
Each of these rules is there because not following it caused someones death. Diving deep on air introduces or complicates the problems of narcosis, CO2 retantion and oxygen toxicity. They also feed on each other. CO2 retention is made worse by the denseity of air at depth and is thought to predispose one to O2 toxicity. CO2 and nitrogen are thought to have a sinergistic narcosis effect. I may not have used the right term there but the point is CO2 makes narcosis worse.
I don't dispute the contributions Hal Watts has made. at least one source even credits him for being the first to use an alternate second stage. He is well known for the deep air records he and divers trained by him have held. It is also well known that a good number of divers have died in pursuit of these records. As far as the adventures I mentioned I hesitated to recite specifics because they are detailed in a number of publications and I would be speaking from memory. The most notable incedent I am aware of is outlined in (Ithink it was) "Caverns Measurless to Man" by Sheck Exley. From memory (please don't anyone sue me if I have details wrong and by all means look it up yourself) Mr. watts conducted a deep dive with a student (who I think was like 16 years old) to recover a lost (don't remember what). The dive was a CF. They were seperated and Mr. Watts returned alone. This was in the days before trimix was in common use. Mr. Watts made a Heliox dive to recover the body and was severely bent.
I have been lucky enough to have the chance to meet and speak with Mr. Watts and he is a real nice guy and certainly an interesting personality. In fact he took an interest when my wife and I were diving at his place with an instructor who he obviously didn't think much of (the instructor never got in the water). He invested a couple hours nudging us into getting other training. If you haven't and you get the chance ask him about diving deep air and how he justifies diving with PPo2 well above what anyone recommends. It is very interesting and he has proved he can (or could) do it. Many others proved they couldn't. Saying he is second to none in the diving industry would certainly elicit arguments from many many people and it has nothing to do with my credibility. The fact that his credentials eclipse credentials don't make diving deep on air any safer.
Popeye
Contributor
I suggest you re-read the book, which I have in my hand. There are ten rules, which include -three- of yours. I have no idea where the other two came from, especially "Don't dive deeper than 130 ft".
No one disputes that. But effects vary greatly from individual to individual. The Navy Dive Manual states that divers may be affected at 100fsw, but may also be coherant at 200fsw.
There are so many different types and degrees of diving, that the diver should make the effort to explore their own boundries, learn for themselves what is appropriate, instead of listening to self professed experts claiming "the sky is falling" hysterically.
After your incoherant recollection of Exley's book, I suggest you find a cite for this before someone -does- sue you. I can assure you it will be forwarded to Hal Watts. Maligning divers on the internet to strengthen weak points of argument is a well practiced DIR tactic who's time is long past. The man you refer to instructs for 8 different agencies, as well as his own agency, and holds more than one world record. He also trains world record holders, including his daughter.
In deep air diving.
I'd say at this point your credibility is in an inverted spin. Your anecdotal stories of deep air horrors don't hold up to scrutiney. The fact that you would malign this man is simply scurrilous.
Make sure to list all the people you know that hold more certification, citation, and accomplishment than Hal Watts.
Many, many, I believe you said.
=====================================================================================
About Hal Watts
Hal Watts first experience in scuba was in 1955 when he was working towards a master of laws degree in Atlanta USA. In 1967 he set a world record deep air dive to 119m, which was acknowledged in the Guinness book of world records. As of the printing of this information sheet, January 2001, Hal holds the world record deep air dive in a cave to 127m. He has trained six other world record deep air divers, including his daughter Scarlett Watts who in 1998 established a new womans world record deep air dive, and in July 1999 PSA instructor trainer Mark Andrews set the men's world record deep air dive to 156.4m.
In March 1996 Hal was presented with the prestigious 'Diver of the year' award for education, presented by Beneath the Sea organization of New York.
Hal is an extended range instructor trainer for PSA, IANTD, NAUI and TDI, qualified to teach deep air, Nitrox, Techtrox, Trimix, Rebreathers, Full Face Mask, Hard Hat, Drysuit, Cave, Cavern, Diver propulsion vehicles and wreck penetration. He is an instructor evaluator/certifier for NASE, PDIC and SSI. He is a PADI cavern, Nitrox and deep diving instructor. Hal is a rebreather instructor trainer; having dived several makes of rebreathers, such as the BMD SCR-4, CCR 1000, CCR 15.5, Cis-Lunar, Drager Atlantis 1, Halcyon, Odyssey and the Prism.
Hals reputation of being one of the diving industries foremost authorities has afforded him the opportunity to dive all over the world. On July 4th 1990, Hal was one of the first recreational divers to dive on a civil war iron clad, the US Monitor off Cape Hatteras, North Carolina. He had the privilege to be on the dive team with Gary Gentile, Billy Deans and Steve Bielinda (all famous wreck divers). Another deep wreck that he has dived is the Andrea Doria, lying at 75m off the coast of New York USA. He has made several thousand extended range recreational dives on air, nitrox, heliox and trimix, using open circuit scuba, mixed gas rebreathers and surface supplied hard hat diving systems.
Hal has dived with Sperm Whales in the Azores, wrecks in Truk Lagoon and ice dives in Chicago. In 1993 he made a 244m submarine dive off Grand Caymen.
======
The most in-depth diving qualification
The legendary deep diver Hal Watts first established PSA in 1987. Hal developed the training program originally for extended range recreational deep air diving, however it was soon realsied that PSA could offer their expertise in the other fields of extended range diving. PSA currently offers courses in:
Deep air to 61m
Nitrox Techtrox
Trimix Full face mask
Cavern
Cave
Drysuit
Nitrox blender
Advanced gas blender
Rebreather
O2 first aid
Instructor courses
Recreational diving is currently undergoing big changes and the recreational diving world is ready to accept the fact that divers want to 'Go to the edge of the envelope and beyond, safely'
PSA has always felt that divers needed an organisation that would offer proper training to learn the safest way to get involved in extended range recreational diving. The first level of PSA deep air training is to 30m. During this course you will be introduced to gas management skills, equipment configuration and in water training very different from your basic recreational training.
PSA has a safety record second to none, being the only training agency with a 100% safety record. PSA is also the only training agency not to offer the mass of instructors the title of instructor trainer; we believe that by keeping a tight rein on this qualification ensures very high standards are maintained and a degree of training to the highest level.
Please take your time to read the information contained on this web site. PSA welcomes your comments and looks forward to being of service to you and your friends.
In 1998 Hal was selected to be a safety diver in Sardinia Italy, for the woman's free dive world record set by Tanya Streeter of Grand Caymen. Tanya set a freshwater record at Hal Watts Forty fathom Grotto in Ocala Florida.
In the 1960's Hal Watts introduced and labeled the 'Octopus' second stage and coined the often-used phrase 'Plan your dive - dive your plan'.
Popeye
I didn't misquote the book. I didn't quote it at all. I said those rules were first derived there. They can be found almost word for word from what I wrote from memory in "The Art of Safe Cave Diving" page 199. The five rules are followed by the expanded rules of which there are seven. This book is the NACD cave diving text.
The same identical five rules can also be found in the "NSS Cave Diving Manual"on pages xxv, xxvi and xxvii
There was nothing incoherant about my recolection. I will find the referance page for the accident I mentioned and post that also. Be back in a bit.
I didn't misquote the book. I didn't quote it at all. I said those rules were first derived there. They can be found almost word for word from what I wrote from memory in "The Art of Safe Cave Diving" page 199. The five rules are followed by the expanded rules of which there are seven. This book is the NACD cave diving text.
The same identical five rules can also be found in the "NSS Cave Diving Manual"on pages xxv, xxvi and xxvii
There was nothing incoherant about my recolection. I will find the referance page for the accident I mentioned and post that also. Be back in a bit.
Popeye
Contributor
"The five rules of accident analysis were firs...
The five rules of accident analysis were first outlined in "Basic Cave Diving a Blueprint for Survival" by Sheck Exley. The book uses specific incedents and their analysis to derive the rules that cave divers have since used to avoid their fates. The rules are (in my own words)
Dive within your training
Have a continuous guide line to the surface (for overheads)
Use the rule of thirds for gas management
Have three lights per diver
Don't dive deeper than 130 ft (now days usually modified to mean END rather than actual depth)"
Is what you said.
In the book you cited first, rule #3 is "Avoid deep diving in caves", not a mention of a 130 ft limit.
The point is also specific to cave diving.
130 ft is referenced in the text, but Sheck's personal observation was that 150 ft, not 130, was a more definative line.
The cited story was about two divers that died, cause unknown, in a cave, at 240+ feet.
Furthermore, Exley recommends progressive depth penetration, i.e., "learning narc", as a solution to the problem.
Your cite, not mine.
Popeye,
Follow up with the other sources I gave. I want to finish talking about my failing credibility.
Accident analysis has been an ongoing process that started with Sheck exley's efforts. As I said you will find the exact rules I cited in both the NACD and NSS manuals.
As far as the other incedent I mentioned. "Caverns Measureless to Man" mentions the 1970 Helium dive by Hal Watts where a safety diver died. .There is also some stuff on the net that has more details but nothing I would call a sourse. The other book I have that I think recounts the event was loaned to one of my instructors. I will look for the specific reference. If you are forewarding stuff to Mr. Watts ask him about it while your at it. He may even be willing to get on here and tell the story. As I stated it was from memory
If you have Sheck Exley's book "Caverns Measureless to Man" read chapter 5 "Deeper and Deeper" The chapter contains many first hand accounts of deep air deaths.
When these guys were doing their dives there was no alternative to air for deep diving and nobody had ever dived that deep before.
Why should one explore their air depth boundries? Of what use is that information and at what risk? All it takes is a little He and it's a nonissue.
Follow up with the other sources I gave. I want to finish talking about my failing credibility.
Accident analysis has been an ongoing process that started with Sheck exley's efforts. As I said you will find the exact rules I cited in both the NACD and NSS manuals.
As far as the other incedent I mentioned. "Caverns Measureless to Man" mentions the 1970 Helium dive by Hal Watts where a safety diver died. .There is also some stuff on the net that has more details but nothing I would call a sourse. The other book I have that I think recounts the event was loaned to one of my instructors. I will look for the specific reference. If you are forewarding stuff to Mr. Watts ask him about it while your at it. He may even be willing to get on here and tell the story. As I stated it was from memory
If you have Sheck Exley's book "Caverns Measureless to Man" read chapter 5 "Deeper and Deeper" The chapter contains many first hand accounts of deep air deaths.
When these guys were doing their dives there was no alternative to air for deep diving and nobody had ever dived that deep before.
Why should one explore their air depth boundries? Of what use is that information and at what risk? All it takes is a little He and it's a nonissue.
I dove deep air for years, up until about a year ago. For the longest time there were no alternatives, if you wanted to dive deep, you dove air, later it was a financial issue for me. I've seen 300 on air, sub-200 many many times.
Now, I don't dive air at all, ever. Its simply not the optimum gas for any depth.
We all dove deep air once, the survivors now dive helium.
WW
Now, I don't dive air at all, ever. Its simply not the optimum gas for any depth.
We all dove deep air once, the survivors now dive helium.
WW
Popeye
Contributor
1. Be trained in cavern or cave diving and dive within the limitations of your training.
2. Always run a single continous guideline from the enterance of the cave.
3. Always reserve AT LEAST 2/3's of your starting air for the trip out of the cave.
4. For cave divers, properly equiped and trained, never dive below 130'. For cavern divers, properly eqipped and trained, never dive below 70'
5. Have at least 3 seperate light sources per diver. For cavern divers these are the sun and at least 2 battery-powered lights. All lights should have a burn time greated than the planned length of the dive.
Your rules relate directly to cave and cavern diving.
You, yourself have adopted them to OW diving, which you should make clear.
If rule #4 relates to ENDs as you espouse, what's up with 70ft?
Your post was innacurate and inflamatory.
If -you- feel the need to post such things, because your arguments have to rely on scare tactics and sullying the reputation of others, then -you- need to be prepared to cite your story.
It's not my job to prove the theories of others, particularly when I don't agree with them.
Furthermore, I don't feel that citing accidents with unknown parameters from a third of a century ago is relevent to the discussion we're having.
How about sharing some modern deep air statistics with us?
Even George Irvine can only come up with about 1.5 deaths a year for the last three decades, where are all your "many who tried and couldn't" accounts?
That relate to recreational diving?
Such was the purpose of my original post. I don't consider a death at 300-900 ft a deep air death. I consider it Darwinism. But neither do I feel the same argument exists for diving 135 ft, as diving 300 ft.
Mike, it's not a non-issue.
First, trimix training and gear is prohibitavely expensive for many.
If you intend to routinely dive in excess of 150ft, most would consider it a necessary evil.
But if you dive "Hole-in-the-wall" in Jupiter, 140fsw, a common tourist destination, it's a total waste of money.
Secondly, if helium is such a cure-all, how come deaths on the Doria were virtually non-existent during the air era, but commonplace now, with mix?
Divers should make their own assesment of their needs, from an educated position.
They shouldn't arbitrarily adopt your restrictions, that you arbitrarily adopted from someone else.
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