Deep Air - Here we go again....

[Sas]

Ya, its been a good show from all sides, but at 360 posts, its time to put it to bed.

Posts like this only make me want to keep posting! I hate when others think that they should decide when something is done to death. If someone was forcing them to read these threads then maybe. But there is an ignore thread function.

So where were we? Personally I was interested to hear about opinions on Rhone Man's comment 'what's the big deal?'

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Great, you know him! Why don't you (in public, like you're doing to AJ) ask him to stop using age to "cut down" divers he's having a discussion with?

Um ... well ... because I don't think that's what he was doing. What he said was that 40-somethings tend to look at things from a different perspective than 20-somethings.

That's not a put-down on young people ... it's a simple statement of fact. In truth, if I thought he was putting you down for your age, I WOULD have said something. But he's right. Hell, I'm almost 60 ... I have a very different way of looking at things than HE does.

To my concern, in 15 or 20 years you'll probably look back and wonder why you thought there was anything wrong with what he said ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I simply cannot fathom a training agency not suggesting that END's be limited for recreational technical divers. If yourself and the OP were given the responsibility of running a major training agency what would be your standands? Just friendly conversation...

What makes you think I agree with the OP's point of view with respect to deep air?

What I agree with is his right to express his viewpoints and discuss them in a spirit of mutual respect. I didn't see that happening ... and so I pointed it out ... because without that tone of respect, no positive outcome is possible.

Neither party is likely to change their views on the subject of deep air ... and, FWIW, I HAVE expressed my own views on the subject. Perhaps you missed the part where I said I am in agreement with the person I took issue with.

There's what you say, then there's how you choose to say it. BOTH will impact how seriously you will be taken by those who read your words.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DaleC]

What's a nickel rocket anyways?

I really don't like the "to save a few dollars" reference whenever citing the only reason to violate an END of 100' on air. There are other reasons. But financially; how much would it cost me to be certified to use trimix through GUE or UTD (as I'm sure the other agencies are worthless )? I'm PADI AOW now:
At IDC it will cost me
GUE-F $850CAD
Recreational Triox $1600CAD
So, sans the actual fill, it will cost me $2450 to dive to recreational depths on He via GUE. I've been told UTD will get me there for about $900 which is a lot more palatable to a mostly recreational diver who wants the benefits of He at depth but still, not just a few bucks.

 

[mafiajoe]

But you have no right to claim that using Trimix is intrinsically safer than using Air for open water dives within the limits set for Air by most training agencies for adequately qualified and trained divers, ie 50 to 60 meters (165 to 200 feet).

Because there is no evidence supporting this.

That may even be the opposite. I am more afraid of DCS than of narcosis for the open water dives I am talking about, and it's easier to do a mistake leading to DCS (eg unproper ascent or screwed-up runtime) with Trimix than with Air. And I am not even talking about the number of experiments available for dive tables with Air, compared with the Trimix. Or with the extra burden (stages etc) going with the Trimix. Or with the overconfidence that can go with the knowledge that there will be no narcosis with the Trimix.

So please stop generalizing without any proof.

:thumbs_up:

As far as I know, the limits set for open water air diving (for adequately qualified divers) by many training agencies or federations, including TDI, BSAC, FFESSM/CMAS and even DSAT are in the 50 to 60 meters range (165 to 200 feet).

Same for commercial diving with air.

The distinction between "recreational" and "technical" diving is American, not European, though Europeans know what "technical diving" means.

Most of the adequately qualified and trained French divers (me included) don't consider as "technical" an open water air dive down to 50 meters, which is common practice in France when conditions are right, with a 15 liters tank on one's back and that's it. Call it "macho" if you like ; "overkill" isn't any nicer and has drawbacks of its own.

And some say that family ties don't count! Being cousins(I'm Italian)we have the same attitude and share the same views on pretty much everything.
Yep,that technical vs.recreative businness is quite ridiculous.There are just divers, using a different set of gear and mixes depending on what type of dive they're about to perform.Well,it's all about fashion and marketing(mainly marketing,fashion is just a means to prop it up...as usual)

 

[Sas]

What's a nickel rocket anyways?

Urban Dictionary: nickel rocket

Basically, someone tight with money.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What's a nickel rocket anyways?

I really don't like the "to save a few dollars" reference whenever citing the only reason to violate an END of 100' on air. There are other reasons. But financially; how much would it cost me to be certified to use trimix through GUE or UTD (as I'm sure the other agencies are worthless )? I'm PADI AOW now:
At IDC it will cost me
GUE-F $850CAD
Recreational Triox $1600CAD
So, sans the actual fill, it will cost me $2450 to dive to recreational depths on He via GUE. I've been told UTD will get me there for about $900 which is a lot more palatable to a mostly recreational diver who wants the benefits of He at depth but still, not just a few bucks.

My introduction to He came through an IANTD Rec Trimix class which cost me, as I recall, about $400.

How worthwhile any class will be depends on who teaches it ... and how well it fits in with what you're trying to do with it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rhone Man]

So where were we? Personally I was interested to hear about opinions on Rhone Man's comment 'what's the big deal?'

Hey don't put a bullseye on my back! I get flamed enough in these threads as it is...

Actually on the deep air point (as opposed to the deco point), although I am a traditional 'deep air is fine for some people' I am slowly starting to move my position more towards the 'Helium is better' camp. There clearly are some superb divers who are just 'farm animal stupid' (to use Lynne's memorable phrase) when they go slightly deeper - the late great Rob Palmer springs to mind. Although I am no Rob Palmer, I made a really bone headed mistake the other day at 135 feet, which together with another recent incident got me ruefully admitting that I might not be as narcosis resistant as I had always professed myself to be.

But I still say it is easy to be a fan of Helium if you live somewhere where it is cheap and readily available.

 

[LiteHedded]

Hey don't put a bullseye on my back! I get flamed enough in these threads as it is...

Actually on the deep air point (as opposed to the deco point), although I am a traditional 'deep air is fine for some people' I am slowly starting to move my position more towards the 'Helium is better' camp. There clearly are some superb divers who are just 'farm animal stupid' (to use Lynne's memorable phrase) when they go slightly deeper - the late great Rob Palmer springs to mind. Although I am no Rob Palmer, I made a really bone headed mistake the other day at 135 feet, which together with another recent incident got me ruefully admitting that I might not be as narcosis resistant as I had always professed myself to be.

But I still say it is easy to be a fan of Helium if you live somewhere where it is cheap and readily available.

It's good to realize that on a dive you can walk away from
glad it worked out ok for you

 

[Scott L]

What makes you think I agree with the OP's point of view with respect to deep air?

What I agree with is his right to express his viewpoints and discuss them in a spirit of mutual respect. I didn't see that happening ... and so I pointed it out ... because without that tone of respect, no positive outcome is possible.

Neither party is likely to change their views on the subject of deep air ... and, FWIW, I HAVE expressed my own views on the subject. Perhaps you missed the part where I said I am in agreement with the person I took issue with.

There's what you say, then there's how you choose to say it. BOTH will impact how seriously you will be taken by those who read your words.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

All good words. I believe I read somewhere where your typical END limit is about 120ft which corresponds with mine. I admit to coming into the thread late not having read all posts. Thanks for responding...