Deep Air Diving - thoughts

[Air One]

can this be compared to elite alpinists who summit everest without bottle oxygen

No. Our problems are high PpO2 and PpN2, their problem is low PpO2.

 

[Tomeck]

No. Our problems are high PpO2 an PpN2, their problem is low PpO2.

Is PpO2 high less serious than PpO2 low?

 

[bubbleblowindude]

This discussion has gone from rediculous to ludicris! To assert that "I can do it, but I dont know about you", is reminiscent of the chest-pounding machismo bullcrap that pervaded the cave diving community in the 60's. If you dive deep (100 ft and deeper) on air, YOU ARE IMPAIRED. In fact, you are impaired at shollower depths depending on all of the issues that have already been beat to death in earlier posts. To use "not paying for trimix" as your excuse for deep air diving is the same white trash type thinking as not paying for one of those "fancy house things" in order to justify living in a trailer with Bubba going through your trash for his wifes anniversity present. If your safety isn't enough reason for you to obtain the required training and skill to conduct deeper dives, do the gene pool a favor and do your dives on Argon. In fact, you can probably adapt and overcome the narcotic effects, and in fact it will make you 10 feet tall, bullet proof, and better looking! I truly believe we have an inherently safe sport which bears witness to the fact that those who conduct "deep air" dives stilll enjoy the blessing of life in order to be here to represent the uninformed position that "it's OK". Booger-eating morons...look up "reynolds number". CO2 is how much more narcotic than Nitrogen? Swimming along at a relaxed pace is one thing...I truly admire those of you who can patiently continue to endure this banter as I cannot. Argueing with an idiot is like wrestling with a pig. Both of you are going to get dirty, but the pig is going to like it.......

 

[Colliam7]

To use "not paying for trimix" as your excuse for deep air diving is the same white trash type thinking as not paying for one of those "fancy house things" in order to justify living in a trailer with Bubba going through your trash for his wifes anniversity present.

OK, this is the best rant I have seen in a LOOONG time! Thanks for an enjoyable read, and for hopefully bringing the thread to a 'successful' conclusion.

 

[Rhone Man]

Agree. Way too much machismo on this thread.

 

[Air One]

This discussion has gone from rediculous to ludicris! To assert that "I can do it, but I dont know about you", is reminiscent of the chest-pounding machismo bullcrap that pervaded the cave diving community in the 60's. If you dive deep (100 ft and deeper) on air, YOU ARE IMPAIRED. In fact, you are impaired at shollower depths depending on all of the issues that have already been beat to death in earlier posts. To use "not paying for trimix" as your excuse for deep air diving is the same white trash type thinking as not paying for one of those "fancy house things" in order to justify living in a trailer with Bubba going through your trash for his wifes anniversity present. If your safety isn't enough reason for you to obtain the required training and skill to conduct deeper dives, do the gene pool a favor and do your dives on Argon. In fact, you can probably adapt and overcome the narcotic effects, and in fact it will make you 10 feet tall, bullet proof, and better looking! I truly believe we have an inherently safe sport which bears witness to the fact that those who conduct "deep air" dives stilll enjoy the blessing of life in order to be here to represent the uninformed position that "it's OK". Booger-eating morons...look up "reynolds number". CO2 is how much more narcotic than Nitrogen? Swimming along at a relaxed pace is one thing...I truly admire those of you who can patiently continue to endure this banter as I cannot. Argueing with an idiot is like wrestling with a pig. Both of you are going to get dirty, but the pig is going to like it.......

I like to read easy english writters, while I have to use my paddles.

I do agree with you except one thing, when you say to the guy that doesn't agree with you that he is an idiot, you give a fantastic proof of your own stupidity.

About the pig I don't know...I'm gonna ask this to the next pig I meet.

 

[peterbj7]

This discussion has gone from rediculous to ludicris! To assert that "I can do it, but I dont know about you", is reminiscent of the chest-pounding machismo bullcrap that pervaded the cave diving community in the 60's. If you dive deep (100 ft and deeper) on air, YOU ARE IMPAIRED. In fact, you are impaired at shollower depths depending on all of the issues that have already been beat to death in earlier posts. To use "not paying for trimix" as your excuse for deep air diving is the same white trash type thinking as not paying for one of those "fancy house things" in order to justify living in a trailer with Bubba going through your trash for his wifes anniversity present. If your safety isn't enough reason for you to obtain the required training and skill to conduct deeper dives, do the gene pool a favor and do your dives on Argon. In fact, you can probably adapt and overcome the narcotic effects, and in fact it will make you 10 feet tall, bullet proof, and better looking! I truly believe we have an inherently safe sport which bears witness to the fact that those who conduct "deep air" dives stilll enjoy the blessing of life in order to be here to represent the uninformed position that "it's OK". Booger-eating morons...look up "reynolds number". CO2 is how much more narcotic than Nitrogen? Swimming along at a relaxed pace is one thing...I truly admire those of you who can patiently continue to endure this banter as I cannot. Argueing with an idiot is like wrestling with a pig. Both of you are going to get dirty, but the pig is going to like it.......

Extraordinary!

 

[Thalassamania]

This discussion has gone from rediculous to ludicris! To assert that "I can do it, but I dont know about you", is reminiscent of the chest-pounding machismo bullcrap that pervaded the cave diving community in the 60's. If you dive deep (100 ft and deeper) on air, YOU ARE IMPAIRED. In fact, you are impaired at shollower depths depending on all of the issues that have already been beat to death in earlier posts. To use "not paying for trimix" as your excuse for deep air diving is the same white trash type thinking as not paying for one of those "fancy house things" in order to justify living in a trailer with Bubba going through your trash for his wifes anniversity present. If your safety isn't enough reason for you to obtain the required training and skill to conduct deeper dives, do the gene pool a favor and do your dives on Argon. In fact, you can probably adapt and overcome the narcotic effects, and in fact it will make you 10 feet tall, bullet proof, and better looking! I truly believe we have an inherently safe sport which bears witness to the fact that those who conduct "deep air" dives stilll enjoy the blessing of life in order to be here to represent the uninformed position that "it's OK". Booger-eating morons...look up "reynolds number". CO2 is how much more narcotic than Nitrogen? Swimming along at a relaxed pace is one thing...I truly admire those of you who can patiently continue to endure this banter as I cannot. Argueing with an idiot is like wrestling with a pig. Both of you are going to get dirty, but the pig is going to like it.......

Feel better now? Got it off your chest? Now let's look at the facts.

The Scientific Diving Community has made several hundred thousand air dives between 130 and 200 without a single incident. There have been far more problems with mix diving and rebreathers.

I've probably made more air dives in that range than you've made dives, period. I'm not about to tell anyone that there is no impairment or that there should be no concern, of course there is, such is the case on each and every dive. But you accomplish useful work with the right attitude and approach. It's not a question of macho or any other such crap ... it's a question of a careful and methodical approach to a very serious undertaking, to suggest otherwise is foolish and to approach it in any other fashion is. for me, unacceptably dangerous. Perhaps you think that any such diving is too dangerous, that's fine, that's a personal choice, but I'm not calling you names because you make a decision that is different than mine. But you do need to keep a civil tongue in your mouth and remember that mix diving only recently became available and it is not routinely available in most places in the world.

As to "bugger-eating morons," the last time I heard that phrase was Parker Turner, chuckling, and ironically self-describing at the AAUS Diving Computer Workshop many years ago.

 

[24940]

Can't really say what I've forgotten, since I can't remember it, but....

I did a small job in March to free a mooring cable at a local marina. Max depth 131', temp was 35. Each descent consisted of getting to the snag as quickly as possible, so there was about five minutes of hard kicking.

Dive #1 was down and back to locate the snag and assess the situation.
Dive #2, I rigged the snag and attached a comealong. I was able to perform two cycles of attaching, pulling and detaching before I ran out of BT.
Dive #3, I figured on more cycle would get me the slack I needed to free the snag. I shot video from the descent to the snag.

Upon reviewing the video, I saw a log laying parallel to the mooring line and about 4' away. I never saw that log on any of the dives. It was about 18" in diameter and rather hard to miss in the video. I don't think I forgot about it, I never saw it. I was narced and fixated on the mooring line.

I have a question for those who say they can't remember what they saw when diving deep air. I have more than a dozen 200' dives on air and about 100 deeper than 150'. I've never once forgotten any portion of a dive nor any detail about the animals I looked at. Are you getting so narced that you are barely able to function? Whenever I've felt narced I have always ascended or aborted the dives. If the narcosis was caused by CO2 buildup from swimming too fast or moving the anchor I've stopped, taken a couple long breaths and it went away. On the trimix dives I've made the difference was noticable, but not enough to make me want to pay for helium each time I dive deep.

 

[Bismark]

I worked as a police officer while I attended college and I read the state wide BAC printouts every morning. At the time .01 was the legal limit. To put it in perspective, most people become severely impaired in terms fo both judgment and coordination at .15, are at risk of blacking out and passing out at .20, will be unconcious at .30 and will be at high risk of dying to to respiratory arrest at 40. However, it was common to see people with BAC's in the .30 to .50 range, who were not only awake but actually driving a car with at least some degree of success with BAC's that shoudl have killed them.

These were individuals who were seriously alcoholic and who functioned "normally" at BAC's that would leave a non drinker on the floor, and in fact when sober they were so neurologically impaired by DT's that they probably could not drive at all.

So in effect, if we want to insist on the alcohol impairment analogy, we have to be willing to accept the possibility that narcosis does not affect all divers equally, that some divers may have more resources than others to start with and can in effect stand to lose more to narcosis than other divers and still be effective to the required degree, and that divers who dive deep air a lot may in fact develop a degree of tolerance.

I'm not saying any of the above is neccesarily true or false, but I am saying if anyone wants to use alchol impairment as an analogy, they had better be willing to look at both sides of the issue.


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For long exposures, PO2's in the 1.2 to 1,4 range are preferred as the risks associated with them are very low. 1.6 is considered ok for deco by most agencies as the work load is quite low and the benefits offset the risks. But in the now distant past 1.6 was considered ok for bottom gas.

In effect, the higher the PO2, the shorter the allowable exposure time, but 1.6 is by no means the maximum that can be tolerated with a reasonable degree of safety - it is just that PO2;s above 1.6 are not considered acceptable for long exposures.

The US Navy developed short term O2 exposure charts that allow high PO2 for short periods of time - as in 2.0 and above for very short periods in the 5 to 10 minute range. Deep air records in the 400 ft range have also been done with what are considered to be very high PO2's (the 2.8 range) but on very short profiles with minimum time above 1.6.

During WWII the British did research on rebreathers and routinely had divers at 50' on 100% O2 for in excess of 10 minutes (PO2 of 2.5).

So in light of what's been done, an ascent from 150' to a 70' stop for the couple minutes it would take to get there poses no excessive concern for oxtox as the exposure is short. It is not ideal, but if it's all you got, it's all you got (which is a bigger issue you need to beat yourself for later.)

I have been away for a few days and missed a lot of the fun....

I absolutely agree with your experiences above. I am sure that just about anyone who enjoys the odd (or even) drink has had similar experiences where they feel, more or less, intoxicated after the same amount of alcohol. Unfortunately, even after many, many years of trying to nail down what it is that makes me a either a cheap drunk or able to act appropriately in social situations after too many drinks, I haven't been able to nail it down.

I believe this is the problem we are talking about in reference to deep air and narcosis. One persons cheap drunk is the other persons social unacceptable behaviour. One day you are not narced, the other day, you try donating air to the fish... As far as learned tolerance........ tried that with alcohol also and apparently, the only person who thought I was tolerated it was myself......(heard this from others )

As I mentioned earlier, yes different countries vary wildly in their approach to BAC, and it has also changed in the same countries (states, provinces, whatever) and usually to more stricter tolerances. 30 years ago it was not uncommon to drink and drive and while maybe not socially acceptable, it was not looked upon with the same "oh my god" view as it is today. I like to think we have advanced in this cause.

To those who chose to continue to dive deep (150' plus say for example) on air, as long as you aren't using my tax dollars on helicopters and paramedics, fill your boots. Even then, all I can do is complain as is my right as a citizen and taxpayer. To those new to tech diving and looking at deep air diving and trimix, do your research and read scientific studies and listen to experienced divers anecdotal evidence and then make up your mind. Don't just trust what you read on the internet. Also, there are several agencies available to teach you technical diving. Read their standards, compare their track records in the real world and above all else, use your own common sense. Sometimes arguments need to become polarized in order to refine the nature of the argument. In reality, most often the black and white you see in an argument is more like several shades of really dark and really light grey with a space in the middle.

Now I have to go back and read what else I missed.......