Deep Air Diving - thoughts

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To dive Deep Air is a judgment call and an informed decision, based on your experience & skill and possible mitigating factors for the dive at hand, with regard to the particular activities & tasks to be performed. May you choose your endeavor wisely. . .
 
I believe you are referring to this experiment:

Awesome, I think I'll win the Tour de France this year. Or maybe the Olympic marathon, I can't decide which one I want to talk myself into winning.
 
There are plenty of ways to be impaired diving - a little tired, a little headache, a little seasick, a little hungover, a little muscle soreness, a little unfamiliar with your buddy....
So run a proper study with a proper sample size, measure actual results, and publish the complete report so somebody else can come behind you to validate your results.
 
So run a proper study with a proper sample size, measure actual results, and publish the complete report so somebody else can come behind you to validate your results.

I don't really believe there is need for a study to show narcosis impariment increases with depth when diving with air, it is well accepted by everyone.

I was just pointing out there it is a judgement call, just as diving with other forms of impairments is also a judgement. Some judge 100 feet END to be their limit, others 120 feet, others 150 feet, others 200 feet.
 
To dive Deep Air is a judgment call and an informed decision, based on your experience & skill and possible mitigating factors for the dive at hand, with regard to the particular activities & tasks to be performed. May you choose your endeavor wisely. . .

I definitely agree. I had the same choice as you - diving the San Fran on air - and turned it down on two separate dive trips. Of course this doesn't make my choice right and yours wrong (or vice versa) - the world is not black and white... there are shades in between. Some of the more vocal critics of "deep" air don't seem to recognise this though.
 
I don't really believe there is need for a study to show narcosis impariment increases with depth when diving with air, it is well accepted by everyone.

I was just pointing out there it is a judgement call, just as diving with other forms of impairments is also a judgement. Some judge 100 feet END to be their limit, others 120 feet, others 150 feet, others 200 feet.

As a society we have been able to establish limits for a blood alcohol content level that is considered unacceptable and you will be criminally charged if you drive while meeting or exceeding those limits. Yet different people react to alcohol differently and on different days, etc, not unlike the impairment resulting from narcosis. Different states and countries have chosen different blood alcohol contents but most have chosen them. (I think I recall Rarotonga chose .30 as theirs..........)

If no one else was at risk and you were not going to use limited resources (ambulances, hospitals, etc) then I could care less if you chose to drive while legally intoxicated. It is when you put others at risk that I have concerns, not unlike the instructor on trimix who takes his student to 150' on air. Now you are making a "judgement call" for someone else other than yourself.
 
If no one else was at risk and you were not going to use limited resources (ambulances, hospitals, etc) then I could care less if you chose to drive while legally intoxicated. It is when you put others at risk that I have concerns, not unlike the instructor on trimix who takes his student to 150' on air. Now you are making a "judgement call" for someone else other than yourself.

150ft on air is an acceptable limit by some training agencies, just like .08 alcohol is acceptable limit for some provinces. Neither situation is impairment free just tolerated. I realize the agency you align yourself with has much more stingent impairment guidlines but it wasn't too long ago 150' wasn't considered very deep.
 
As a society we have been able to establish limits for a blood alcohol content level that is considered unacceptable and you will be criminally charged if you drive while meeting or exceeding those limits.

And not all societies set the same limits...... starting to get my point now?

What is legal and considered acceptable in one country might not be legal in another....

120 foot on air might be considered fine in most diving agencies, but not in GUE.....
 
I think we really need to distinguish between perceived effect and physiological impairment that is a function of physics and biology. I have no doubt that different people perceive different effects and that these change from day to day and are as variable as the wind ..... Arguing about someone's ability to "tolerate" narcosis is akin to arguing about someone's ability to tolerate alcohol ..... We are talking about a physiological reaction to increased partial pressure of gases. Period. This is science. Narcosis is impairment. Period.

When you express yourself so clearly I'm forced to disagree with you. What we are concerned with, whether diving or driving a car, is ACTUAL impairment, which relates to the psychological state, not the physiological one.

It is well known that some people can tolerate alcohol much more than others, and that an alcohol level which will render one person a danger to everyone on the road will have no negative impact at all on another person. Indeed, some people (possibly alcoholics) require a certain level of blood alcohol to function properly. The only reason there are absolute limits is for ease of enforcement, nothing more.

If a diver can function normally at a certain pPN2 whereas another cannot, why should the first diver have to abide by the limit that the second diver needs? The Mount study showed that there really is a considerable placebo effect in narcosis, and it wasn't used as a way to skew the results. Anyone who knows Tom Mount knows that he is very much an advocate for the use of helium when appropriate - he's not trying to persuade people to dive deep on air the way Hal Watts used to.

As to your last statement in that paragraph "We are talking about a physiological reaction to increased partial pressure of gases. Period. This is science. Narcosis is impairment. Period." I'm afraid you are seriously mis-stating what science is. Science is NOT a statement of indisputable facts - it is a process of observing facts, attempting to construct explanations (theories) to support those facts, and then testing those theories. There is nothing absolute about science. In your case, you are stating your premise as a given ("We are talking about a physiological reaction to increased partial pressure") and then deriving it. Small wonder that you appear able to prove your case.

The point is that we are not concerned with a physiological reaction but a psychological one, as that is what governs our behaviour. There are objective measures of people's performance (handling puzzles, etc) and people vary greatly in their ability to do these at depth. I have students who seem significantly impaired at 100', and others whose performance doesn't seem to change as far down as 170' (I've not tested students on air below that depth). I have regular dive buddies who appear totally compos mentis at those depths, and I know both from how I feel and from what others say that I function normally. This is in warm clear water - I would want to re-evaluate in different conditions. The scientific process, in fact.

Diving is a very new sport, and much of what is going on is not yet understood. Narcosis is certainly one of those inadequately researched areas. I don't object to you or anyone having your own ideas about what's going on down there, and determining your own behaviour accordingly. But please don't construct specious arguments to give your ideas unwarranted credibility and impose them on others.
 
It very well could be the case that that is where we will all end up eventually. I don't know enough about rebreathers to offer reasoned arguments for or against but even though all my training and diving has been on OC, I am a strong believer in using the "right tool for the job". I guess I still have bad dreams about a car I had that wouldn't start if you even mentioned the word rain........I can't get past the electronics and water thing. Guess I am just as guilty as those who used to say nitrox wasn't needed and those who still say trimix is not needed...:D Sure would have a lot of extra money in my bank account though............

Well, you wouldn't be the first to hesitate. In fact I remember everyone telling me I would kill myself on that death machine. Thing is, you have alot of options on CCR as long as you have a sealed loop. If you don't you just bailout to open circuit. It's like everything else, as people are educated about CCR they come around. In the early 90's Padi condemed the use of nitrox, only to have a course a few years later. Opinions in the dive industry seem to change when that individual or organization can make money from it. We will be running a rebreather workshop in San Diego if you would like to learn more.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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