Deco bottles on one side WHY?

[AquaTec]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Hey Doug,

I don't have a problem visualizing what you're doing, but IMHO, I think you are attempting to solve problems that shouldn't exist in the first place and thereby introducing more potentially dangerous problems. I don't think it's a good idea to have things strapped to the back tanks for wreck diving because of the very real danger of entanglement and inexcessability.

To clarify. I havent tryed this yet but I have seen it done. I would not do it when wreck diving. just for deep open ocean dives.
What problems am I solving that shouldn't exist in the first place?? other than the back mounted tank. a lot of people are doing it. and of course I am open minded to new ideas

I'm curious about how you go about the logistics of dives inexcess of 300'. For any substantial dive like that, I wouldn't do it without a competant support team (a couple divers) that could help out with bottles and what not. Take a look at GUE's Bitannic expedition for an idea of what they did for support and logistics

were can I read about the Britanica, I have only seen it in magazines.
My kit for dives deeper than 300'
dble 112's on the back
L/S stage 80 al
R/S stage 80 al
R/S stage 45 al

most dives at that depth have been between 15 and 25 minutes
any longer we would need support. any deeper than 350 we would need support. within those peramiters I can carry the gas easily
most of these dives are wall dives and we deco along the wall

I'll tell you one thing for certain, there ain't no friggin' way I would have an o2 bottle strapped to my back tanks like you were talking about. People have croaked doing this because they get the regs confused and breath it at depth. This is a bad idea, Doug. The way I am visualizing your gear, I see it getting quite complicated which is the wrong direction for this type of diving. You have to look in the other direction and simplify your kit and streamline it.

I agree The 100% was a bad idea. maybe the intermediat He. or maybe nothing back there. just looking at options. simplifing my gear is an evolution. as I need more gas my configuration may evolve but I will try to always keep it stream line and simple yet still acomplish my goals.

As for the 95's for stages, I don't think this is a good idea either. Think about it, these things are -9lbs each full. I assume you're using double LP120's pumped up (-30lbs or so), you would look like a balloon underwater trying maintain neutral buoyance with 95's strapped to you. Not only would you be pushing a ton of water, you'd best hope you don't puncture your wings and/or drysuit. This isn't a good idea, Doug. Use AL tanks at the very least.

95's is another area I haven't tried yet, as for size they are very close to 80's, boyancy.. they are neutral when empty, I were a 11 lbs weight belt so I could dump that. I hate weight belts.
bladder rupture. that is one of my secret fears. I wear a double bladder wing. and of course have a dry suit on. I use a small argon bottle for the suit, and I have a whip on one of my stage bottles incase of argon reg failure etc.
This is something I would need to experiment with in the shallows say 100ft


What say anyone else?

Mike

I through out new ideas to get opinions thanks for yours Mike

Your friend.
Doug

 

[Lost Yooper]

To clarify. I havent tryed this yet but I have seen it done. I would not do it when wreck diving. just for deep open ocean dives.
What problems am I solving that shouldn't exist in the first place?? other than the back mounted tank. a lot of people are doing it. and of course I am open minded to new ideas.

What I was getting at, is I believe you could go about it with a more streamlined config, and rather than introduce more problems, you could simplify everything.

Were can I read about the Britanica, I have only seen it in magazines.
My kit for dives deeper than 300'
dble 112's on the back
L/S stage 80 al
R/S stage 80 al
R/S stage 45 al

most dives at that depth have been between 15 and 25 minutes
any longer we would need support. any deeper than 350 we would need support. within those peramiters I can carry the gas easily
most of these dives are wall dives and we deco along the wall

GUE used to have something about their Britannic expedition on their website. I don't know if it's still there or not.

So, you're taking three bottles down with with for a dive that would be preferable to have three deco mixes for (maybe a 21/35, a 50% nitrox, and O2). I'm curious about what you have in each of those three bottles. Are you taking two deco mixes and one full of bottom mix?

I agree The 100% was a bad idea. maybe the intermediat He. or maybe nothing back there. just looking at options. simplifing my gear is an evolution. as I need more gas my configuration may evolve but I will try to always keep it stream line and simple yet still acomplish my goals.

Ya might need bigger back tanks, eh? Maybe some PST 120's pumped up? I can't imagine a scenario where you would need a tank on your back except maybe an argon bottle in a cave or something. I would avoid that like the plague.

95's is another area I haven't tried yet, as for size they are very close to 80's, boyancy.. they are neutral when empty, I were a 11 lbs weight belt so I could dump that. I hate weight belts.
bladder rupture. that is one of my secret fears. I wear a double bladder wing. and of course have a dry suit on. I use a small argon bottle for the suit, and I have a whip on one of my stage bottles incase of argon reg failure etc.
This is something I would need to experiment with in the shallows say 100ft

First of all, I wouldn't substitute steel stages/deco tanks tanks for a weight belt. If you need to get rid of a weight blet, make up a V-weight or wear a weight belt harness under your drysuit.
Secondly, the buoyancy of an empty steel 95 is basically irrelevant. The 9lbs full is the primary concern. An 80 swings from -3lbs to +3lbs (with nitrox/air, less with trimix) which is very convenient. Even if you take three Luxfer 80's with you, you're only adding -9lbs of weight. Since you're not likely to run them dry, the positive weight empty isn't particularly relevant either.
Third, you shouldn't be worried about a wing failure. If you are, then something isn't quite right, I suspect. You should be weighted so you can swim up by ditching something at the beginning of the dive at depth, right? Obviously, you have a lot of stuff with you, but some of it is ditchable.
Of course, there are alternative ways to get up if a single bladder BC fails. If you're weighted pretty good, and you're BC totally fails, then the drysuit has a considerable lifting capacity. I also take along a Halcyon 80lb lift bag that will definately get me up. On top of that, I dive with a familiar buddy whom I trust will be there (who also has a wing, drysuit, and 80lb lift bag). The world would have to come to an end for me to not get up -- and I'm not pushing as much water as one with dual 100lb bladders either .
Since you're diving bungied wings, you have to be particulary careful about all of this near wrecks. If you puncture your wing, the bungies will squeeze all the air out, where as a puntured non bungied wing will always have some buoyancy available. I don't want to get into the whole bungied wing debate on this thread, but wanted to bring it up as a matter of awareness for any lurkers.

Anyway, I like how you are getting through all of this, Doug. Hopefully, you'll get it all worked out.

Take care.

Mike

 

[AquaTec]

It is had to be so descriptive here that a complete understanding is had.
I also don't know how to quote the way you do that makes it simpler to read.

Originally posted by Lost Yooper


What I was getting at, is I believe you could go about it with a more streamlined config, and rather than introduce more problems, you could simplify everything.

Steam line is my number one concern! Be specific on the problems

[/B]

GUE used to have something about their Britannic expedition on their website. I don't know if it's still there or not.

I'll have a look

So, you're taking three bottles down with for a dive that would be preferable to have three deco mixes for (maybe a 21/35, a 50% nitrox, and O2). I'm curious about what you have in each of those three bottles. Are you taking two deco mixes and one full of bottom mix?

Yes the intermediate He is something that I am going to start introducing into my profiles. say a 21/35

The bottle contents
Back gas [Bottom Gas] dble 112's is a best mix for the depth say 11/60
Stage Btle [Travel Gas] aluminum 80 is 36% O2
Stage Btle [Deco Mix] aluminum 80 is 80%
stage bottle [Deco Mix] aluminum 40 100%
this last bottle hold the reserve gas needed if my travel gas fails and I do my deco on my back gas until the 30ft stop loosing your travel gas is the week link as deco gets very long. your budy is going to come into play here and so is hypothermia.
I also tend to use the 100% at the 20 and 15 ft stops since I no longer need it for back up at that point. but my profile is set as if deco-ing on 80%. this just adds to the safety factor

I am considering / planning to add another tank as an intermediate He mix as mentioned above

[/B]

Ya might need bigger back tanks, eh? Maybe some PST 120's pumped up? I can't imagine a scenario where you would need a tank on your back except maybe an argon bottle in a cave or something. I would avoid that like the plague.

OK. to date I am ok with the back tanks but I have gone about as deep as I can with them and still holding the rules of thirds. Some rules I just don't break [well most rules in diving]

The scenario was adding that next bottle of intermediate He, yes I could sling it on the side
the 95's idea was to eliminate the 80 and 40 redundant tanks when all the gas could be put into one bottle. the a 95 on the other side just for balance

[/B]

First of all, I wouldn't substitute steel stages/deco tanks tanks for a weight belt. If you need to get rid of a weight blet, make up a V-weight or wear a weight belt harness under your drysuit.
Secondly, the buoyancy of an empty steel 95 is basically irrelevant. The 9lbs full is the primary concern. An 80 swings from -3lbs to +3lbs (with nitrox/air, less with trimix) which is very convenient. Even if you take three Luxfer 80's with you, you're only adding -9lbs of weight. Since you're not likely to run them dry, the positive weight empty isn't particularly relevant either.
Third, you shouldn't be worried about a wing failure. If you are,
then something isn't quite right, I suspect.

No I am not particular worried about it, just slipped out. I might have better said I have considered this catastrophe and have prepared for it.

You should be weighted so you can swim up by ditching something at the beginning of the dive at depth, right? Obviously, you have a lot of stuff with you, but some of it is ditchable.

I agree

Of course, there are alternative ways to get up if a single bladder BC fails. If you're weighted pretty good, and you're BC totally fails, then the drysuit has a considerable lifting capacity. I also take along a Halcyon 80lb lift bag that will definately get me up. On top of that, I dive with a familiar buddy whom I trust will be there (who also has a wing, drysuit, and 80lb lift bag). The world would have to come to an end for me to not get up -- and I'm not pushing as much water as one with dual 100lb bladders

I too carry two lift bags. My double bladder is tucked nicely inside on set of wings. and my buddy or dry suit would be other alternatives as well. Because my wings are bungeed they do not have any drag at all. but this starts the argument of trade offs. lets not go there.

either .
Since you're diving bungeed wings, you have to be particularly careful about all of this near wrecks. If you puncture your wing, the bungies will squeeze all the air out, where, as a punctured non-bungeed wing will always have some buoyancy available. I don't want to get into the whole bungied wing debate on this thread, but wanted to bring it up as a matter of awareness for any lurkers.

Yes I agree this thread could take off in a whole new direction with the wings issue. I am willing to leave it at you do it your way for good reason and I do it my way for good reason.
If someone is ever stupid enough to want to be attacked on the issue of bungeed wings then we can discuss it in that thread some day. And you know it will come around

Anyway, I like how you are getting through all of this, Doug. Hopefully, you'll get it all worked out.


That’s the idea. To communicate about ideas good and bad then come with solutions that work.
Thanks for your time
Doug

Mike [/B]

 

[Lost Yooper]

Hey Doug,

In order to quote someone, you have to type the word QUOTE and have these brackets on either side of it [ ]. At the end of the phrase you wish to quote you would type /QUOTE with the brackets on either side of it. If you wish to have the quote in in bold face type B with inside the brackets [ ]. At the end of the phrase you wish to have in boldface, type /B inside the brackets. It's a bit time consuming, but it helps organize everything.

Yes the intermediate He is something that I am going to start introducing into my profiles. say a 21/35

The bottle contents
Back gas [Bottom Gas] dble 112's is a best mix for the depth say 11/60
Stage Btle [Travel Gas] aluminum 80 is 36% O2
Stage Btle [Deco Mix] aluminum 80 is 80%
stage bottle [Deco Mix] aluminum 40 100%
this last bottle hold the reserve gas needed if my travel gas fails and I do my deco on my back gas until the 30ft stop loosing your travel gas is the week link as deco gets very long. your budy is going to come into play here and so is hypothermia.
I also tend to use the 100% at the 20 and 15 ft stops since I no longer need it for back up at that point. but my profile is set as if deco-ing on 80%. this just adds to the safety factor

I am considering / planning to add another tank as an intermediate He mix as mentioned above

Doug, you have to get the GUE Tech manuals. I think you're deco gasses are all screwed up, man . That would be a whole 'nother thread, though. Try running your profiles with a 100%, 50/50 nitrox, and a 30/30 (or 35/25).

What are you using for a program?

I too carry two lift bags.

Two lift bags!?

Mike

 

[AquaTec]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper

Doug, you have to get the GUE Tech manuals. I think you're deco gasses are all screwed up, man . That would be a whole 'nother thread, though. Try running your profiles with a 100%, 50/50 nitrox, and a 30/30 (or 35/25).

What are you using for a program?




I use voyager for a program and manualy add deep stops
why do you think my deco is all screwed up???
the 30/30 is that He

I have heard the argument for 100% I don't disagree.
the 50/50 yes higher O2 but you are not getting off the bottom mix for some time, unless you incorperate the 35/25 as a deco gas. this is the direction i am headed. If I use He as deco gas then I would change the 36% to some thing else....quite possible the 50/50 you speak of.

I was taught by IANTD and these are their standard deco gases and they have the tables for their use. even though I use a software planner. the tables are then good back up.

But I am evolving from there

 

[Lost Yooper]

I sent you a PM.

Mike

 

[AquaTec]

Got it
sent one back

Doug

 

[ninja]

I once resisted putting my bottles under one arm

But i have to admit it is so nice!! I think once ya try it you will never go back

NINJA

 

[WYDT]

Originally posted by trymixdiver
Why is carrying a deco or stage bottle on each side considered strokery ? using the following :

1. If your not cave diving and not carrying a canister light

2. Your not wreck diving or penatrating

Give me some good reasons why i cant use a deco bottle on one side and a stage other side.

Andy

Just wondering...

What kind of dive are you doing where you don't need a light but need a stage and a deco bottle?

DSAO!

 

[trymixdiver]

I am carry a light, just not a canister light. I use a 4 "c" cell as my primary and a 3 "c" cell as a backup. I just dont need a canister light at all, i dont really need to use more than what i carry.

Vis is pretty good 90% of the time, i just like the light to see a bit better. Not to mention 99% of my tech dives are from the shore and the less i have to carry thru the surf the better.

Andy