David Shaw, what happened? Who was he?

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Risk management my friend....at times the risk is simply too great.

Why didn't I think of that??? Thanks for the heads up; I feel much safer now.

Huck, I think you have it right; sometimes even the best fail. That's just the way it is. Period. In fact, if someone is commited to pushing the envelope there is a good chance that they will in fact die.

May be we should stop being such a nanny state and stop trying to protect everybody from themselves.

In the end, Dave Shaw lived his life exactly as he wanted - for better or for worse. Can all the armchair quarterbacks out there say the same thing?
 
Touche Dale, very subtle way of saying it, but I get it.

I always hear that though, "At least he died doing what he loved." but I didn't get that out of the video, not at all. I think it's more that no one loves dying doing what they love.

For me, I think I'm not afraid of dying so much as trashing my wife's life. We're both widowed. I promised her that I wouldn't die. She's been there, done that, and so have I. Believe me, it's harsh. No guarantees as we all understand or I'd never even get wet, but this life we have, it's awesome, she's awesome. I plan on extending it for all I have. I'm viewing getting the most out of life for as long as I can as "pushing the envelope."

My fear is not of dying also so much as getting maimed and living with a disablement and putting that or my death on my wife. If I were to be a thrill seeker, I believe I'd have to be single because I just can't be that selfish. Anyone who's read the book can see the horror and pain Dave inflicted on his wife.

I've always worked in a field where anything and everything is dangerous... unless you make it not so. Safety is a huge word in my life, it's part of who I am personally, a and professionally. Every day, for decades, it's been part of my discussion on and off the job. Heck, I've got an uncle who's permanently daft from falling off of a ladder changing a light bulb so anything can get you. I also had a granddad get hit by a train and survive. Life's funny that way.

I guess you could say, "Live like you were dyin'." but everytime we've seen people in a situation where they're dying, they would give ANYTHING to not be there. Quite unlike Hollywood's version, I see them struggling, crying, screaming, clawing at the muddy bottom of a hole in the earth rasping their lungs out in desperation to come back alive, confused, bitter, unbelieving, frantic, not smiling at the sky saying "God, this is as good as it gets!" I could be wrong, but the evidence to the contrary is quite compelling.

Just explaining my viewpoint a little, where I come from. I wouldn't expect others to be who I am or believe what I believe in.

Every single time I've read about the super deep divers dying, and the list is long, I've always wondered, no, WE'VE always wondered, why? Some guys think they can defy those long odds quoted by the author in his book. I don't think he made them up. To not put the facts in place for people to have gained from those losses would be a horrible injustice.

It's been identified what the hazards are. Recreational divers are doing it so dangerously. You can talk to any pro diver and see what it takes to bump the safety factor up and recreational divers can't afford that. Simply having communication equipment has been talked to death as one of the absolute factors in so many accident that I'm pretty amazed that the industry hasn't come up with a recreational communications system. We're still clanging on tanks and writing on tablets! Egads!

Me, I ain't dyin' for, as Shaw put it, "The hell of it." Not if I can help it. I guess some might have missed the part where I said that I'd defend the right of anyone to dive, and live, how they want. I'm not about to sell out my opinion on this though in the name of being pc or pleasant about it. It's too serious of a topic.
 
Huck, I think we are on the same page in many ways. I certainly would never suggest that someone take a risk they were not prepared to accept because someone else thought they should. I am also very aware of the pain felt by those left behind. I'm married with three kids and have had to adjust my activities because of it.

In a case like Dave Shaws or Sheck Exleys (or many others) though I think there is a fine line between analyzing the events and decision making to learn how not to make the same mistakes (something I think they would not mind at all) and analyzing for the sake of criticism. When one is doing something unknown they do not have the luxury of hindsight and I think many people forget that. I also think that some people in this era of safe, managed adventure, have no idea how much mental stress is involved in pushing the envelope without a safety net. Much of what we have, and what we know, is the result of such endevours. My point is that I trend very softly when it comes to criticizing people who take up such a challenge.

Different times; different mindset.

"MEN WANTED FOR HAZARDOUS JOURNEY. SMALL WAGES,
BITTER COLD, LONG MONTHS OF COMPLETE DARKNESS,
CONSTANT DANGER, SAFE RETURN DOUBTFUL. HONOR AND
RECOGNITION IN CASE OF SUCCESS."
 
Very insightful post Huck, I only wish I'd said it as eloquently as you.
 
May I ask what you do for a living Huck?
 
That's a very powerful post, Huck. I have a lot of understanding about your POV. Way more than I would have ever wished for.
 
After reading this book 'Raising the dead' by Phillip Finch i realised how little i know about technical divers and the training they have to go through to do their type of diving.The fact that Dave Shaw pushed the limits of technical diving the way he did and survived at first amazed me.Tragic is the fact that dave Shaw was positive about being able to recover the body of Deon Dreyer - a young diver that died 10 years prior to the recovery-and about how they( Dave Shaw & Don Shirley) carefully planned the recovery to the last detail-even practicing sliding the body bag over Don Shirley's at another diving site.The tragic part for me is that they almost pulled it off- had he returned earlier-the body was floating ,why didn't he just retreat to the shotline and later pulled the body up by his thinner cave line that was anyway tied to it ? I have also realised from the book and other sources that Don Shirley must be an excellent diver and trainer and that he is well respected all over because of this.

The other point i want to make is that after reading how Deon Dreyer died, i am amazed that nobody mentioned that it seems criminal how he & his friend who were at the time both inexperienced and how they were taken to a depth of 70 metres by three technical divers and left there while the technical divers went to check out something at the depth of 80 metres !
Then when they ascended they 'lost' Deon at a depth of around 50 metres ! 'Nobody realised he was missing ' until later and then when two of the technical divers followed him down he was at least 40 metres below them already !

The technical divers reckon that they probably got narced and they couln't do anything ! Thank God my son doesn't dive with people like them.

I got a bit off the topic there but i must say this book really made me jump up & take note that diving is both good & tragic and i intend to still be diving for a long time & also to explore more whilst diving !
 
Wow Huck....very powerful, well spoken, and true on the mark.

I am a private pilot...I know what the dangers are and I do my utmost best to minimize the risk and still fly.

I too have found the saying "well he died doing what he loved" to ring very hollow. Heck review the vid and you will see he died by drowning, I doubt he loved drowning. I want to die OLD, with a life of experiences and memories, not "doing what I love".

Dale...my point was that several seriously professional groups/the military were approached and they all said NO based on their analysis. I can accept that one can still go forward but then one must accept that criticisms afterwords. This IS about risk management and again....where one simple, tiny, imperceptible problem can lead to damn near immediate death....no thanks., at least for me.
 
David Shaw knew the risks. There is not one cave or CCR diver out there that does not. Things go wrong in these environments that you are not expecting. At his depths his happened to be too much. There is no safety net when one does these extreme dives and I really dont know if there can be that big of a learning curve. I think luck plays a big part in it and luck does run out. The guys who push these incredible limits know that it could be the last time they do it.
 

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