Along with interviewing you instructor beforehand, I would also strongly encourage something other than a "Weekend Certification" mill. As you stated, the pace was too much.
Dangerous dive shop ? what do you think ?
- Thread starter jackuk
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Your first indication of a 'you're just another number' dive center.
This is fairly normal as boat rides cost money.
Gut instincts are hard to shake. If it feels bad, it usually doesn't get better. Sometimes through no fault of the operator, but the individual is looking out for things that can be used to support the 'gut instinct'.
For this kind of attitude, there is no excuse and a reasonable talk should have followed with the manager.
Over-exhaustion is a common problem with beginners, but it should be caught early by an attentive instructor. How many others were learning with you?
Sounds like a fairly common scenario for SE Asia unfortunately. The course is so short that you really have to hit the books hard. Strangely enough, IME many young backpackers have the energy (and probably the practise from last minute studying for exams) to scan for the answers and parrot them back in the Knowledge Reviews.
You say that you have your own manual and you read it 5 times. Surely the Knowledge Reviews presented no real problems?
Again, this is common in SE Asia and a real problem..... unless you can wait a couple of days more and then join in the next rotation.
Welcome to McDivers.
If you also made it clear that you were willing to pay more for private tuition. Then you would have seen a different reaction.
All PADI students are required to own their manuals. This shouldn't be a problem anymore. Shops often have old copies that ex-students leave behind.
Welcome to the tropics. Humidity and salty air play havoc with electronics. A small scratch on a well-used DVD often makes them freeze during play. I hate modern technology living here!
The oft-quoted "You get what you pay for" usually holds very true for scuba instruction. Cheaper courses usually mean faster courses. Many dive shops use the 3-Day OW course as a COST-run course. This means extra time for practising skills is frowned upon as the shop loses money. This leads to students being rushed through skills and awarded 'Certificates of Attendance' rather than certs based on true ability. Pressure is then applied to take Advanced Open Water to make the whole thing profitable.
Be aware that this situation exists in many places throughout SE Asia. Take the mindset to pay more than the cheapest advertised, and you should receive more than the cheapest instruction available. Many operators are in a pricewar for the backpacker $$, fighting over kids who'd rather be spending their money on booze (or in the Gili's....
, than quality training.Not all SE Asian dive centers run this way.
Finally again, an instructor boasting of deep dives to a student is an idiot IMO, and you should have had a quiet word I reckon.
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I think a lot of us would agree. But I try to go with the flow, accepting that that's the way it is with many dive shops--they are businesses after all, and it's a tough business to make it in. If something doesn't feel right I try to brush it off and go elsewhere. Some do seem to pressure customers more than others. Don't be discouraged.
As mentioned before, it is a PADI standard that each student owns their training material, therefore, if you are ''borrowing'' a used, outdated manual the dive shop is breaking standards.
I would ask for a new manual for the rest of your course (for you to take away with you) and judge their reaction. After all, the reason why the PADI courses are more expensive than the SSI courses is because you have to buy the manual.
Remember, pay peanuts, get monkeys.
I would ask for a new manual for the rest of your course (for you to take away with you) and judge their reaction. After all, the reason why the PADI courses are more expensive than the SSI courses is because you have to buy the manual.
Remember, pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Jackuk,
The only thing which would have bothered me would be the "porn" and the bragging about the Buddy Breathing.
When you choose to do the course in 3 days you should be ready for the fast pace of the course.
Since it is obvious that you want to continue on your quest to become certified, just choose someone that will be more accomodating to your desires. Be ready to pay a premium for high quality individualized instruction. If during your travels you make it to the Philippines stop by and see us, we will accomodate you as best we can
Cheers,
Roger
The only thing which would have bothered me would be the "porn" and the bragging about the Buddy Breathing.
When you choose to do the course in 3 days you should be ready for the fast pace of the course.
Since it is obvious that you want to continue on your quest to become certified, just choose someone that will be more accomodating to your desires. Be ready to pay a premium for high quality individualized instruction. If during your travels you make it to the Philippines stop by and see us, we will accomodate you as best we can
Cheers,
Roger
Bonairetrip
Contributor
JackUK:
Please don't take my comments personally. Of your 11 points, I don't think any are about safety per se.
I agree switching instructors on you is bad form -- potentially a bit of bait and switch. But someone teaching diving for a year should be competent. Watching porn on the job is pretty unprofessional. As was sharing the story of his ill advised adventure in extreme diving. And you very correct to refuse to dive when exhausted.
Most of the rest of the stuff seems more like (arguably) poor customer service that you are trying to label as unsafe. Take items 1, 2 and 11 -- annoying, you bet. Unsafe, no. Item 3 -- not sure how that is unsafe.
I think this all boils down to a simple thing: you felt pushed. You wanted more individualized attention. (Lots of folks would rather enjoy lower costs). You wanted a slower pace. (Lots of folks want to go fast so as not consume too much vacation time with class stuff).
More than anything else, this was a case of you having strong (but mostly unspoken) expectations -- and you picked a very poor match. Sort of like going to Subway for lunch and being disappointed that there were no white linens and attentive table service. You can do the three star dining options (they are out there, even in some resort locations) but they will not be cheap -- and price seems to be a factor for you.
I also think you talked yourself into a bad place mentally. You started anxious. You were unhappy with the shop. You talked a long time with the owner (that indicates a potential issue right there) and wanted a super experienced instructor. You never had confidence in the new instructor. You panic and lost confidence in yourself. You wanted a day off (to rest and regroup) -- probably a good idea. But you rejected the three dive day as an option without giving it an effort. If you try dive 2 and it goes well and you are feeling good, try dive 3. The same withe dive 4. Starting dive 2 placed you under no obligation to finish dive 4 that day. If you don't get done, throw out some money for private or wait until the next group cycles through.
My advice:
1) Close your eyes and think about what sort of class you want. If you imagine something with just you and the instructor don't pick the class with an instructor, 2 DMs and 6 or 8 students. If you imagine two or three hours of pool/class work and calling it a day, don't go for a super compressed class. If you imagine a more academic approach, take SCUBA as a semester long college class and not from something closer to the weekend seminar.
2) In life, figure out what are true lines in the sand that will not cross and otherwise go with the flow. For example, I think refusing to dive when exhausted is a good rule. But what about all of your other expectations?
3) Panic is bad and needs not to be so readily dismissed. It needs to be addressed and not simply attributed to being exhausted.
4) I don't know your age or fitness but is there something else that contributed to your exhaustion? Anxiety? Motion sickness? Hang over? Jet lag? Lack of hydration or nutrition?
Please don't take my comments personally. Of your 11 points, I don't think any are about safety per se.
I agree switching instructors on you is bad form -- potentially a bit of bait and switch. But someone teaching diving for a year should be competent. Watching porn on the job is pretty unprofessional. As was sharing the story of his ill advised adventure in extreme diving. And you very correct to refuse to dive when exhausted.
Most of the rest of the stuff seems more like (arguably) poor customer service that you are trying to label as unsafe. Take items 1, 2 and 11 -- annoying, you bet. Unsafe, no. Item 3 -- not sure how that is unsafe.
I think this all boils down to a simple thing: you felt pushed. You wanted more individualized attention. (Lots of folks would rather enjoy lower costs). You wanted a slower pace. (Lots of folks want to go fast so as not consume too much vacation time with class stuff).
More than anything else, this was a case of you having strong (but mostly unspoken) expectations -- and you picked a very poor match. Sort of like going to Subway for lunch and being disappointed that there were no white linens and attentive table service. You can do the three star dining options (they are out there, even in some resort locations) but they will not be cheap -- and price seems to be a factor for you.
I also think you talked yourself into a bad place mentally. You started anxious. You were unhappy with the shop. You talked a long time with the owner (that indicates a potential issue right there) and wanted a super experienced instructor. You never had confidence in the new instructor. You panic and lost confidence in yourself. You wanted a day off (to rest and regroup) -- probably a good idea. But you rejected the three dive day as an option without giving it an effort. If you try dive 2 and it goes well and you are feeling good, try dive 3. The same withe dive 4. Starting dive 2 placed you under no obligation to finish dive 4 that day. If you don't get done, throw out some money for private or wait until the next group cycles through.
My advice:
1) Close your eyes and think about what sort of class you want. If you imagine something with just you and the instructor don't pick the class with an instructor, 2 DMs and 6 or 8 students. If you imagine two or three hours of pool/class work and calling it a day, don't go for a super compressed class. If you imagine a more academic approach, take SCUBA as a semester long college class and not from something closer to the weekend seminar.
2) In life, figure out what are true lines in the sand that will not cross and otherwise go with the flow. For example, I think refusing to dive when exhausted is a good rule. But what about all of your other expectations?
3) Panic is bad and needs not to be so readily dismissed. It needs to be addressed and not simply attributed to being exhausted.
4) I don't know your age or fitness but is there something else that contributed to your exhaustion? Anxiety? Motion sickness? Hang over? Jet lag? Lack of hydration or nutrition?
1. Perhaps you went into the sport with some pre-conceived notions and mental baggage (you may not be a fish but we all spent 9 months breathing enriched blood before we got spanked for the first time in our lives).
2. Glad you mentioned the duration of the course. Would you pay 2x the amount for 2x the duration for the same course?
3. Funnily enough you mentioned DSD (Discover Scuba Diving) - its supposed to be a 45 minute briefing, maybe a pool tryout for a couple of skills and off you go for an experience in the sea (1 dive) limited to 10 metres or less with a pro hanging on to you at all times. Seems you signed up for Open Water Course instead. Is there some other information that forum readers here might be missing please?
2. Glad you mentioned the duration of the course. Would you pay 2x the amount for 2x the duration for the same course?
3. Funnily enough you mentioned DSD (Discover Scuba Diving) - its supposed to be a 45 minute briefing, maybe a pool tryout for a couple of skills and off you go for an experience in the sea (1 dive) limited to 10 metres or less with a pro hanging on to you at all times. Seems you signed up for Open Water Course instead. Is there some other information that forum readers here might be missing please?
Why the hell did you stick with this op if on your 1st visit they were even unable to treat you properly ?
There is 20+ dive shops in this small island, don't understand why you stay with some guys that don't do the minimum and welcome a guest properly ...
Who would not be exhausted after such a first day ?
Regarding the OWDC, it can be accomplished in a minimum of 3 days (and this is quite an intensive way to do it !) but again,you have several ops in GT that would be happy to accomodate a more relaxed pace (4 to 5 days).
What you seem to discribe is that in just 3 days you would do DSD + OWDC ?
Very intensive ... Did you ask to do all of this in 3 days because only staying 3 days on the island or did the op organizes the DSD + OWDC this way ?
Finally, if the shop didn't give you the book for the course, it's breaking standard ... and an easy way to make money on your back ... and SHOULD be reported to PADI.
Easy, just send an email to traindep@padi.com.au including your observations + dive shop PADI number + instructor PADI number. If you can't get those informations, just the dive shop & instructor's name.
I don't understand most of this. As others have said, if you had a bad feeling going in, it rarely gets better. And why were they pushing you so hard? Were they really pushing you hard or did YOU have a hard-bottom deadline due to your departure from the island? Glad for you that you have so much education and that you read the manual 5 times. Curious that none of this resulted in your being able to breeze through the written/verbal portions. Also, my first response was, why were you so tired? As for your panic attack, you'll have learned from that one hopes. By that I mean, hopefully, you'll be able to recognize any on-coming anxiety and thwart it in its tracks. After all, 5 reads of the manual should have taught you "stop, think, act". I'll admit, it can be daunting if you are overbreathing your reg . . .but if you "stop", and "think" about it, then you may well realize that all you have to do is a little zen-acting. If you truly are some kind of whiz motorcross racer, then panic probably isn't your first instinct. That said, diving isn't for everyone.
Is that how you read it? I read it like this:
1) He did the DSD with one instructor (an experienced one and was still a bit uncomfortable after the dive).
2) Then he signed up for the continuation for the full OW course. He mentions needing three more dives, which makes sense with an OW following on from a DSD.
3) Then they seem to have been planning some classroom work, some confined water work, plus a dive for the second day, finishing off on the third day with the rest of the material and dives.
4) When he said he didn't want to dive on the second day, they seem to have explained that he would have to do all three remaining certification dives on the third day, which worried him for reasons of feeling too tired.
It's possible to cram a whole OW course into three days, but it requires a very brisk pace. I won't agree to even try a 3-day course unless the student comes to me with the whole book read and the study questions written out. Even then, it's three intensive days!
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