DAN Responds

[L13]

Yeah they do, in total disclosure, they were diving our FLIPPERS before they were getting any money.

If it helps, Bert our office/warehouse/ops manager hates those flipper sets because it's extra work

Like I said. Totally fine. Even if this wasn't the case. There is no question that those are the fins they dive!

 

[Edward3c]

Here is an example from my experience with ISO 9000 to show how an individual acting within a system can invalidate the entire system.

When the director of a program in our district was promoted to another position, she immediately contacted her excellent assistant director to tell her and to encourage her to apply for the newly vacated director position. The district's strict protocol was to announce the position and then have a specific period for people to apply. No applications are accepted after that. The HR person then checks each one to be sure everything is complete and the candidate meets the requirements for the job. Then a list of qualified candidates is sent to the hiring committee. Simple. Impossible to screw up, right?

When the former director saw that her former assistant was not on the list of applicants, she called her to ask why she had not applied. The shocked assistant said she had applied within an hour of the position being opened. The former director went to the HR person who handled the applications to see what had happened, and she learned the process that person used to check applications.

1. When the online application arrived, she printed a copy and set it on a spot on her desk.
2. When the next one came, she set it on top of it.
3. Each succeeding application was placed on top of the stack.
4. When the application period ended, she started to process them, starting at the top of the stack and working her way down.
5. When the time allotted for her to process the applications ended, she stopped checking, no matter how many remained to be done. That means the ones who applied first were not processed and could not be considered for the position.

That HR employee, it turned out, had been using that process for all job openings for years. That means that for every job opening for years, the people who applied first were never considered for the position. For most people, that might seem unthinkable, but she saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. There was nothing in the SOPs telling her to do anything differently. Nowhere did it say that every application had to be processed.

That's a good example of why ISO 9001 should be treated with scepticism. Until the 2015 revision; if your process said you will produce rubbish, then you should produce rubbish. The 2015 version (which only became mandatory in 2018) changed things to make top management responsible not the Quality Manager, and to get customer (especially internal) feedback for all processes.

On the same topic, when reviewing interview records I discovered those doing the interviews hadn't been trained (which was in the SOP) - nobody was prepared to question the owner's family members on their competence - I did. After that, all 100+ directors and managers had to attend interview skills training.

As a Chartered Internal Auditor, I don’t rely heavily on ISO 9001 audit reports.

 

[boulderjohn]

As a Chartered Internal Auditor, I don’t rely heavily on ISO 9001 audit reports.

As the person formerly in charge of internal audits, I fully concur.

Internal audits: If you "ding" a fellow employee, you will not be popular, and it could have ramifications for your career. I did an internal audit of a department and identified several serious problems. Their director went after me hard for it, but before that sh!tstorm passed, he disappeared, along with hundreds of thousands of dollars he had embezzled.

External audits: There are several companies that do those audits, and they are well paid for doing them. I quickly realized that their existence depended upon getting and keeping the contracts to do those audits, and if the company being audited doesn't like what your report says, they can go to a different company the next time. I was shocked by the things they overlooked with us. You see this all the time when major companies get into trouble for illegal activities that their high priced auditors somehow didn't catch.

 

[Edward3c]

As the person formerly in charge of internal audits, I fully concur.

Internal audits: If you "ding" a fellow employee, you will not be popular, and it could have ramifications for your career. I did an internal audit of a department and identified several serious problems. Their director went after me hard for it, but before that sh!tstorm passed, he disappeared, along with hundreds of thousands of dollars he had embezzled.

External audits: There are several companies that do those audits, and they are well paid for doing them. I quickly realized that their existence depended upon getting and keeping the contracts to do those audits, and if the company being audited doesn't like what your report says, they can go to a different company the next time. I was shocked by the things they overlooked with us. You see this all the time when major companies get into trouble for illegal activities that their high priced auditors somehow didn't catch.

The distinction:

Internal Audit (The IIA) works for the Board/Owner. If they value the work the company moves forward.

External Audit works for the shareholders, but are engaged by the Board. Something of a conflict of interest.

I discovered the Finance Director wasn't professionally qualified, that ended his career. I thought I was going to get fired when one audit report highlighted how the company owner could end up in jail for Corporate Manslaughter. They then spent the money to implement safe practises of work.

Anyway, we've got a bit off topic.

 

[cerich]

That's a good example of why ISO 9001 should be treated with scepticism. Until the 2015 revision; if your process said you will produce rubbish, then you should produce rubbish. The 2015 version (which only became mandatory in 2018) changed things to make top management responsible not the Quality Manager, and to get customer (especially internal) feedback for all processes.

On the same topic, when reviewing interview records I discovered those doing the interviews hadn't been trained (which was in the SOP) - nobody was prepared to question the owner's family members on their competence - I did. After that, all 100+ directors and managers had to attend interview skills training.

As a Chartered Internal Auditor, I don’t rely heavily on ISO 9001 audit reports.

ISO is for regulatory compliance, insurance and marketing to those that don't know better. No serious QA focused organization would ever be content to use that as anything but the above.

Just saying.

 

[Edward3c]

ISO is for regulatory compliance, insurance and marketing to those that don't know better. No serious QA focused organization would ever be content to use that as anything but the above.

Just saying.

ISO 9000 series started as an engineering BS 5750, nothing to do with finance or insurance or marketing. Unlike most ISOs the 9000 series just documents what an organisation wants documented, large chunks can legitimately be left out. Organisations can be creative with the ISO 9001 scope. One reason Internal Audit shouldn’t rely on it.

Anyway, now off topic.

 

[TravelGas]

Totally agree!

In all our training (rescue diver, first res ponder, etc.) we are taught to call 911, or the local equivalent immediately!

But, as soon as anyone is available to do so, DAN should be called next.

In this case, neither call was made for hours. Given their location, I think driving to the hospital was the best equivalent of calling 911 in this case.

If Woody, or any patient for that matter, needs O2 when he exited the water, in EMS world, he should have been transported by ambulance, or if need be driven to a Hospital or Dr. by POV. The next correct step would be to notify DAN and his family.
Proof that this was the correct protocol and action to take was the Patient did not improve and needed O2 again later at the steakhouse, because the above steps were not taken when they should have been.

Really, you can safely add to the above steps that he also needed IV fluid ASAP upon exiting the water.

 

[cerich]

ISO 9000 series started as an engineering BS 5750, nothing to do with finance or insurance or marketing. Unlike most ISOs the 9000 series just documents what an organisation wants documented, large chunks can legitimately be left out. Organisations can be creative with the ISO 9001 scope. One reason Internal Audit shouldn’t rely on it.

Anyway, now off topic.

I didn't say it started that way, it just ended up there.

 

[L13]

If Woody, or any patient for that matter, needs O2 when he exited the water, in EMS world, he should have been transported by ambulance, or if need be driven to a Hospital or Dr. by POV. The next correct step would be to notify DAN and his family.
Proof that this was the correct protocol and action to take was the Patient did not improve and needed O2 again later at the steakhouse, because the above steps were not taken when they should have been.

steakhouse = dive shop in this case, they were cooking their own steaks.

Really, you can safely add to the above steps that he also needed IV fluid ASAP upon exiting the water.

Agreed

 

[Seaweed Doc]

If Woody, or any patient for that matter, needs O2 when he exited the water, in EMS world, he should have been transported by ambulance, or if need be driven to a Hospital or Dr. by POV.

I'm curious on this. I've provided emergency oxygen on the beach to exactly two patients that I'd say "needed" oxygen (one IPO/IPE and one DCS, both diagnosed on the beach and confirmed by hospitals). I also gave it to a third that was just panicky and hyperventilating. None ended up being transported by ambulance.

I had a student call EMS for the IPO/IPE patient. EMTs (Fire Department) determined that she needed to go to the hospital, but because she was conscious and stable they recommended just driving her there. They wouldn't do an emergency transport in Fire Department ambulances, but if she hadn't had a friend willing to drive her they'd have called an ambulance.

In the DCS instance, I knew the patient was stable and figured the fastest route to the hospital was cutting out the Fire Department completely because they would have just delayed the treatment process and she was feeling better while on oxygen.

In my part of the world, ambulance personnel really aren't trained to do much. Fire departments have paramedics that are dispatched to more serious situations, but a standard fire crew often does initial assessment. Ambulances are also expensive and often not covered by insurance (at least as I recall).

So was it appropriate for these folks to be driven to the hospital by a friend instead of an ambulance? Seemed so at the time and still seems so to me.