Creation vs. Evolution

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MikeFerrara:
I see it as a problem too but probably for a different reason than you do. The problem that I see, if your description of her attitude is accurate, is her understanding of the real message of the gospel. That message is that we are not good and can never be good enough and are therefor in need of saving (someone to pay our debt for us). That's where Jesus comes in.

Christianity (the real message of the gospel) is initially unpleasant to everyone. It's a bad news/good news kind of thing, which is probably why it's so often watered down and twisted even in churches. The bad news is that we are all in trouble, that we all fall far short of Gods standard and can't do anything about it on our own. Sometimes telling people that just isn't a good way to increase church membership or get more money in the basket. Most people think they are basically good and ought to be in fairly good shape with God (if there is a God). The more I study the Bible the more I understand just how false that assumption is for me (and probably everyone else too). Still it's not something that goes over very well right off. The good news is that Jesus can and did do what we aren't able to and that is to pay for those inadequacies and intercede on our behalf. That intercession is offered to us as a gift out of God's grace. What we have to do is to believe and ask. The idea that we can't fix it on our own doesn't do anything for our pride or self reliance and doesn't always go over very well either which is no doubt why the Bible is so clear about our pride being an offense to God.

A Christian should believe that Jesus (not the various mangled forms of Christianity) is the only means of salvation because that is the punch line that the entire Bible builds up to. the Old Testament illustrates that man can't do it and the New Testamant offers the solution. Another point that doesn't go over well...you don't get it your way or on your terms but on Gods terms or not at all. We like choice and to have things our way. The Bible is also clear that mans ways are not Gods ways.

So, there is an awful lot about the message that people are not going to like and the fact that many reject it isn't surprising and it certainly isn't anything new. To make matters worse, the gospel does not promise a better life for following Christ. In fact, just the oposite, that it will be difficult and likely bring us persecution here on earth. Telling people that, is no way to fill a church with folks dropping money in the basket either. People want something that makes their life easier not harder.

Now, to your point, how does some one who believes all that "trample all over everyone else's beliefs"? Speaking for myself, if someone asks, seems interested or the subject just comes up, I'll tell them. Just like here, I usually get into these conversations, when I see comments about Christianity or the Bible that I think demonstrates an incorrect understanding of it. Of the many people who comment on the content of the Bible or the short falls of Christianity, almost none of them seem to know what is really in the Bible. So...when the oportunity presents itself, I'll speak to the extent that I feel able. When I vote in elections, I'll vote the way I think I should just as you will. I may speak up when the government or the school system tries to force me or my children to accept something that I believe is wrong. Of course, I see that as trying to prevent my own beliefes from being trampled on rather than trampling on yours. You don't want your children taught creation in school (as an example) and I don't want my children taught that they are as a racist if they disapprove of certain lifestyles that scripture plainly tells us is an abomination to God. Our culture my extend you the right to adopt those lifestyles as you see fit but so far it does not give you the right to force my approval.

That is changing though isn't it? I recently heard about some legislation going through in California that withholds state funding from institutions who do not condone certain lifestyles. Now, as far as I've been able to find out, most parochial schools (for instance) get very limited government funding...they may qualify for funding toward the lunch program or something. Yet to teach the unaltered content of the Bible, as I understand the legeslation, would disqualify them from that. Government, trying to reach right into the church?

I heard about legeslation in Canada which, as it was explained, defines hate speach such that teaching certain content of the Bible might actually be illegal. Are we close to seeing ministers taken to jail for reading scripture in their own church?

Who's beliefs are being trampled? Our society today is all about tolerance but that tolerance sometimes seems very selective. We are to be tolerant of the things that we are ordered to be tolerant of and disobedience absolutely will NOT be tolerated. LOL

There may be "Christian" lobby groups that you may not care for but there are all kinds of lobby groups (they're what makes our government tick) and I'm certainly not to thrilled with many ACLU activities.

I don't know about you but I get hundreds of spam emails every week, soliciters call on the phone and come to the door. Around elections we get all kinds of campaigners knocking on the door. Maybe two or three times a year some religious group knocks on the door. I live in a small town and it's usually some one from one of the local churches (which we don't attend) inviting us to some function. It's barely a blip on my spam radar. The salesmen wants to sell, the politician wants to get elected and someplace in there someone might knock on the door and offer to tell you about the things that I just told you about.

If it were up to me personally, I'd outlaw all those phone calls, emails and knocks on the door because I value my privacy at least as much as you value yours.

I certainly understand that there is much about the "Christian message" that is offensive to some. You're not alone in being offended though. I am often offended. If I turn on the TV or the radio, is doesn't take long to hear or see something that offends me. If I read scubaboard, it doesn't take long for me to find something that would offend me if I let it. Surely if I talked about some groups as people here talk about Christians I would be erased from the board. I think the world is an offensive place and our only choices concern which things are going to offend us. However, I believe that a correct Christian view doesn't focus on what offends us but rather on what offends God, and further, I shouldn't be focused on what you do to offend God but on what I do that offends God.

Then you are not the one I have a problem with. I do not agree with everything you say or believe, but I could easily live in peace and civility with you, perhaps even befriend you. But as you say, there are others out there who don't understand the message of their own faith system. True, this can be and is true of many non-christian religions as well, but christianity is the only one that seems to be repeatedly misread as "convert everyone you can."

If you read the post that started this thread, though it wasn't stated overtly, that was the message many of us got right from the start. I try to follow the axiom of avoiding religion and politics, until someone trys to attack my beliefs. You have not, and I appreciate the conversation. :)
 
gangrel441:
christianity is the only one that seems to be repeatedly misread as "convert everyone you can."
Huh? You ain't payin' attention! It is the central theme of our terrorist enemies, and has been since the very foundation of Islam. The difference is in the radical Islam addendum, "kill the rest."
Rick
 
Rick Murchison:
Huh? You ain't payin' attention! It is the central theme of our terrorist enemies, and has been since the very foundation of Islam. The difference is in the radical Islam addendum, "kill the rest."
Rick
I'm not sure if you meant it but this sounds very much like an attack on all Islam. Radical Islam is something small compared to the belief system, and actually these days based more on politics and how some nations treat others, or their own citizens, rather than anything actually anything religious. Anyone who thinks that Christianity as a system has done better is simply denying history. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the slaughter and slavery of most of South & Central America (to name but a few examples) speak volumes for the attitudes of 'Christians'. Live and let live isn't particularly any part of the 'Christian' heritage IMO. What has been done in the name of various people is incredible when you look at what they actually said. Probably the most abused in this way is Jesus, although I'd lay bets Mohammed wouldn't be too pleased either.
 
Rick Murchison:
Huh? You ain't payin' attention! It is the central theme of our terrorist enemies, and has been since the very foundation of Islam. The difference is in the radical Islam addendum, "kill the rest."
Rick

Radical, fundamentalist Islam is a very small population among the Muslim religion, and they are largely the wacky cousin in the family that everyone else wishes they could pretend wasn't there. The vast majority of Muslim sects want only to be allowed to follow their own beliefs, not to make you follow their beliefs as well. When was the last time a Muslim tried to convert you?

Fundamentalist, evangelizing Christianity, on the other hand, is a much larger portion of Christianity as a whole. Many of these groups believe that the way they get closer to salvation is by converting as many other people to their faith as they can. This is when the religion ceases to be a flower and instead becomes a weed.
 
gangrel441:
Then you are not the one I have a problem with. I do not agree with everything you say or believe, but I could easily live in peace and civility with you, perhaps even befriend you. But as you say, there are others out there who don't understand the message of their own faith system. True, this can be and is true of many non-christian religions as well, but christianity is the only one that seems to be repeatedly misread as "convert everyone you can."

I probably have quit a few traits that might prevent you from befriending me but I doubt any would be related to my religious beliefes. I have plenty of non-Christian friends and family members. It makes for some lively conversation at times, usually over ribs and beer in my back yard.
If you read the post that started this thread, though it wasn't stated overtly, that was the message many of us got right from the start. I try to follow the axiom of avoiding religion and politics, until someone trys to attack my beliefs. You have not, and I appreciate the conversation. :)

I enjoy these conversations. I don't avoid religion but I try to approach the subject with the knowledge that it isn't my place to judge any one else (I only do that in diving, LOL). I believe that there's only one judge and it's probably a good thing for all of us that it isn't me. As far as I know, I'm on the list of people to be judged and have not been given any commision to do any of the judging. That's not to say that others don't say or do things that inspire me to want to give them an attitude adjustment but such emotions have no scriptural basis and just add to the already plenty long list of my own sins. As Jesus said when approached by the crowd who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultry in John 8:7 "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Who of us, knowing that we are standing before the living Jesus, would dare to presume that we should step forward and start throwing stones?

When you run into a "Christian" who wants to throw stones, the most effective response, IMO, would come straight from scripture. Scripture instructs, but it also rebukes.
 
Kim:
I'm not sure if you meant it but this sounds very much like an attack on all Islam. the slaughter and slavery of most of South & Central America (to name but a few examples) speak volumes for the attitudes of 'Christians'. Live and let live isn't particularly any part of the 'Christian' heritage IMO. .

Was it Christianity? Or was it just the Spanish? They left the same legacy everywhere they went. 0.00001% super rich land owners and 99.9999999% poverty. (and now back to our regularly scheduled never ending argument....by the way, we DID come from outer space somewhere...a crash landing, broken ship and here we are. Why narrow this down to only two possibilities?) :eyebrow:
 
gangrel441:
Radical, fundamentalist Islam is a very small population among the Muslim religion
You are deceived... did you not see the widespread satisfaction throughout the Muslim world on 9/11? Or the thundering silence from the Muslim world when it came to condemning the slaughter? The truth in this matter is very uncomfortable for those who'd like to think of the world as mostly "nice guys" - they're mostly not.
As for obnoxious pushy "evangelists," you're correct. They're missing the point. :)
Rick
 
gangrel441:
Radical, fundamentalist Islam is a very small population among the Muslim religion, and they are largely the wacky cousin in the family that everyone else wishes they could pretend wasn't there. The vast majority of Muslim sects want only to be allowed to follow their own beliefs, not to make you follow their beliefs as well. When was the last time a Muslim tried to convert you?

I'm not an expert on Islam but I've heard it both ways. I have heard former muslims speak who say that the "convert or kill" is at the heart of Islam. I've also worked with many muslims who have a TV in every room and two cars and couldn't care less. I don't know which is really true.
Fundamentalist, evangelizing Christianity, on the other hand, is a much larger portion of Christianity as a whole. Many of these groups believe that the way they get closer to salvation is by converting as many other people to their faith as they can. This is when the religion ceases to be a flower and instead becomes a weed.

As I have tried to explain, any Christians who think that gaining cnverts does anything at all for their own salvation are anything but fundamentalists. Scripture is quit clear that faith in Jesus and spiritual rebirth in the Holy Spirit by God's grace is the only means of salvation. I can't save you and you being saved does not save me. My salvation is up to the Lord. You don't enter into it and I can't get it done.

It's like people getting certified to dive without having learned buoyancy control and trim. It's beyond the pale to think that I can do anything at all to save myself.
 
Rick Murchison:
Huh? You ain't payin' attention! It is the central theme of our terrorist enemies, and has been since the very foundation of Islam.

not at all correct.

Islam says: convert all Arabs. the rest can live as they will so long as they pay taxes.
that's why Christians and Jews were able to live under Arab rulers for centuries,
and Christians continue to do so today. Jews, alas, since the foundation of Israel, have not done too well.

look up Christian Iraquis and Christian Iranis in both countries some time, and you'll see they are thriving, as they have for centuries (just to name two. same for Syria, Lebanon, etc.)

please inform yourself of that of which you speak :eyebrow:


Rick Murchison:
You are deceived... did you not see the widespread satisfaction throughout the Muslim world on 9/11? Or the thundering silence from the Muslim world when it came to condemning the slaughter?

way broad overgeneralization.

to put this in perspective, roughly 3,000 civilians died on 9/11.

where was the wide US condemnation of the over 300,000 dead in Darfur?

does that mean we liked what happened? that we support it? that we are ethnic cleansers?

i grieve for the 3,000 dead in 9/11, but if you are calling that a slaughter, what do you call the approximate 40,000 Iraqi civilian deaths since the start of the US invasion?
 
Rick Murchison:
You are deceived... did you not see the widespread satisfaction throughout the Muslim world on 9/11? Or the thundering silence from the Muslim world when it came to condemning the slaughter? The truth in this matter is very uncomfortable for those who'd like to think of the world as mostly "nice guys" - they're mostly not.

Beg to differ with ya' Rich...'fraid you've been watching too much Fox News Channel. There was satisfaction, but it was not as widespread as you say. And I recall the leaders of several muslim countries, including Iran, clamboring to be the first to condemn the attacks.

Rick Murchison:
As for obnoxious pushy "evangelists," you're correct. They're missing the point. :)
Rick

This guy last night was telling me he is turning his life around because he found God, and that's why he was on my doorstep trying to sell me magazine subscriptions.

As far as I could tell, the guy was using that as his cover story while he cases my house. Snarling Labradors came in quite handy.

Man selling magazines from God: "I'll just stand a little further back from the door here..."

Me: "Oh, don't worry...they won't hurt you...unless I tell them to..."

:D
 
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