Creation vs. Evolution

[H2Andy]

crap double post

 

[MikeFerrara]

Please, we're covering evolution here with occasional side trips. I do think that the question of whether or not church sponsored genocide is offset by individual good works belongs somewhere else.

Sort of...The thread subject is creation vs evolution. Since some seem to suggest that church sponsored genocide is related to their rejection of Christianity, the Bible and creation as presented in the Bible, it seems on topic to address the relationship of church sponsored genocide to Biblical Christianity.

But for the record I don't think that genocide is offset by anything.

 

[Thalassamania]

Sort of...The thread subject is creation vs evolution. Since some seem to suggest that church sponsored genocide is related to their rejection of Christianity, the Bible and creation as presented in the Bible, it seems on topic to address the relationship of church sponsored genocide to Biblical Christianity.

But for the record I don't think that genocide is offset by anything.

I appreciate your view on the topic. I concur. Oh well ... we'll see where it goes.<G>

 

[MikeFerrara]

My problem with evangalising to other cultures is that the endogenous belief system will likely have an immune response to the invader. In other words, you are likely to be seen as a threat, which will encourage trends of religious fundamentalism, nationalism, racism, etc. It would be much nicer to see the liberal wings of the different religions reaching out to each other to try to strengthen those liberal trends against the trends of fundamentalism rather than acting in short-sighted self-interest to simply try to gain more converts.

I think you're making several assumptions here. First of all we have all that anyway. What are you considering as fundamental or liberal. I try very hard to base my knowledge and beliefes of God on the Bible and only the Bible. Is that fundamentalism? You or anyone else can be as liberal in relation to that as you want, but I don't want any part of it...and there's plenty of it in churches.

I can't say that there aren't those who call themselves evangalists who act in their own self interest but I don't think that version of evangalism is Biblical. You don't get points for getting converts. In fact, you don't get converts at all and points can't help you. If God wants you, He will have you with or without me.

I have no doubt that some will find something threatening in there someplace but I can't help that.

 

[novicediver]

This thread really needs to die soon. Mods would you please delete it?

 

[H2Andy]

no way, it's been a great thread

and exactly on what gruonds would it be deleted? it's not against TOS

 

[Tassie_Rohan]

Just back from banging rocks and bagging fossils. How's this thread going, any converts to the opposing camp, and has it gotten nasty yet?

I'm putting my money on this thread still being active next year: both sides will never change position and always want the last word...

Cheers,
Rohan.

 

[gangrel441]

I suppose that some people just associate the west with Christianity and make assumptions based on that association.

She felt this way not because she saw me as a westerner and therefore christian, but because she herself as a Chinese christian saw the world in terms of christian = good, not christian = bad. This is a problem.

Don't worry, I usually take biting words ok. LOL.

Since I am a Christian, I do believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. That would be a reasonable definition of a Christian wouldn't it? That's why we refer to Jesus as the Savior. However, I do NOT believe that you or anyone else, MUST embrace it. In fact, I expect that most people are not going to and I accept that.

Fine. You aren't one of the pesky ones like the one I chased off my doorstep 10 minutes ago. (Two snarling labradors go a long way towards convincing them to find another house to pester.) The preeching that christianity is the one and only true way to salvation does nothing but cause misguided christian fundamentalists to trample all over everyone else's beliefs. So much for respect.

 

[Robert Phillips]

[Hijack]

... the Devil has plenty of children right here on earth.

And Pops sure is proud of me!!!!:devil_smi [/Hijack]

 

[MikeFerrara]

She felt this way not because she saw me as a westerner and therefore christian, but because she herself as a Chinese christian saw the world in terms of christian = good, not christian = bad. This is a problem.

I see it as a problem too but probably for a different reason than you do. The problem that I see, if your description of her attitude is accurate, is her understanding of the real message of the gospel. That message is that we are not good and can never be good enough and are therefor in need of saving (someone to pay our debt for us). That's where Jesus comes in.

Fine. You aren't one of the pesky ones like the one I chased off my doorstep 10 minutes ago. (Two snarling labradors go a long way towards convincing them to find another house to pester.) The preeching that christianity is the one and only true way to salvation does nothing but cause misguided christian fundamentalists to trample all over everyone else's beliefs. So much for respect.

Christianity (the real message of the gospel) is initially unpleasant to everyone. It's a bad news/good news kind of thing, which is probably why it's so often watered down and twisted even in churches. The bad news is that we are all in trouble, that we all fall far short of Gods standard and can't do anything about it on our own. Sometimes telling people that just isn't a good way to increase church membership or get more money in the basket. Most people think they are basically good and ought to be in fairly good shape with God (if there is a God). The more I study the Bible the more I understand just how false that assumption is for me (and probably everyone else too). Still it's not something that goes over very well right off. The good news is that Jesus can and did do what we aren't able to and that is to pay for those inadequacies and intercede on our behalf. That intercession is offered to us as a gift out of God's grace. What we have to do is to believe and ask. The idea that we can't fix it on our own doesn't do anything for our pride or self reliance and doesn't always go over very well either which is no doubt why the Bible is so clear about our pride being an offense to God.

A Christian should believe that Jesus (not the various mangled forms of Christianity) is the only means of salvation because that is the punch line that the entire Bible builds up to. the Old Testament illustrates that man can't do it and the New Testamant offers the solution. Another point that doesn't go over well...you don't get it your way or on your terms but on Gods terms or not at all. We like choice and to have things our way. The Bible is also clear that mans ways are not Gods ways.

So, there is an awful lot about the message that people are not going to like and the fact that many reject it isn't surprising and it certainly isn't anything new. To make matters worse, the gospel does not promise a better life for following Christ. In fact, just the oposite, that it will be difficult and likely bring us persecution here on earth. Telling people that, is no way to fill a church with folks dropping money in the basket either. People want something that makes their life easier not harder.

Now, to your point, how does some one who believes all that "trample all over everyone else's beliefs"? Speaking for myself, if someone asks, seems interested or the subject just comes up, I'll tell them. Just like here, I usually get into these conversations, when I see comments about Christianity or the Bible that I think demonstrates an incorrect understanding of it. Of the many people who comment on the content of the Bible or the short falls of Christianity, almost none of them seem to know what is really in the Bible. So...when the oportunity presents itself, I'll speak to the extent that I feel able. When I vote in elections, I'll vote the way I think I should just as you will. I may speak up when the government or the school system tries to force me or my children to accept something that I believe is wrong. Of course, I see that as trying to prevent my own beliefes from being trampled on rather than trampling on yours. You don't want your children taught creation in school (as an example) and I don't want my children taught that they are as a racist if they disapprove of certain lifestyles that scripture plainly tells us is an abomination to God. Our culture my extend you the right to adopt those lifestyles as you see fit but so far it does not give you the right to force my approval.

That is changing though isn't it? I recently heard about some legislation going through in California that withholds state funding from institutions who do not condone certain lifestyles. Now, as far as I've been able to find out, most parochial schools (for instance) get very limited government funding...they may qualify for funding toward the lunch program or something. Yet to teach the unaltered content of the Bible, as I understand the legeslation, would disqualify them from that. Government, trying to reach right into the church?

I heard about legeslation in Canada which, as it was explained, defines hate speach such that teaching certain content of the Bible might actually be illegal. Are we close to seeing ministers taken to jail for reading scripture in their own church?

Who's beliefs are being trampled? Our society today is all about tolerance but that tolerance sometimes seems very selective. We are to be tolerant of the things that we are ordered to be tolerant of and disobedience absolutely will NOT be tolerated. LOL

There may be "Christian" lobby groups that you may not care for but there are all kinds of lobby groups (they're what makes our government tick) and I'm certainly not to thrilled with many ACLU activities.

I don't know about you but I get hundreds of spam emails every week, soliciters call on the phone and come to the door. Around elections we get all kinds of campaigners knocking on the door. Maybe two or three times a year some religious group knocks on the door. I live in a small town and it's usually some one from one of the local churches (which we don't attend) inviting us to some function. It's barely a blip on my spam radar. The salesmen wants to sell, the politician wants to get elected and someplace in there someone might knock on the door and offer to tell you about the things that I just told you about.

If it were up to me personally, I'd outlaw all those phone calls, emails and knocks on the door because I value my privacy at least as much as you value yours.

I certainly understand that there is much about the "Christian message" that is offensive to some. You're not alone in being offended though. I am often offended. If I turn on the TV or the radio, is doesn't take long to hear or see something that offends me. If I read scubaboard, it doesn't take long for me to find something that would offend me if I let it. Surely if I talked about some groups as people here talk about Christians I would be erased from the board. I think the world is an offensive place and our only choices concern which things are going to offend us. However, I believe that a correct Christian view doesn't focus on what offends us but rather on what offends God, and further, I shouldn't be focused on what you do to offend God but on what I do that offends God.