Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

You are talking to someone who spent 5 years in the Roman Catholic seminary system. I have said nothing of what my personal beliefs are. If you believe that evolution occurred and was guided by some higher power, but it did in fact occur over hundreds of millions of years, then the only place I disagree with you is in that I would state "may or may not" instead of "was." I have no problem with faith and beliefs. I was simply eliminating that variable from the equation.

If on the other hand, you believe that the earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days, well....I am done wasting my time trying to bring reason to the irrational.

Oh...and recheck your facts on the whole Japan deal...the Japanese evicted the Europeans because the Europeans didn't seem to understand their place in Japanese society. This included the Christian missionaries. The introduction of guns, which the Japanese embraced while the Europeans were there, then shunned after they were kicked out, is one such example. Any culture which wasn't Christian was regarded as "barbarians" in European eyes. This held true in Japan as well, and the Japanese did not take kindly to being related to as "barbarians."
And it happened in the 17th century, not the 18th. 1604 is when Tokugawa Ieyassou became Shogun and began the movement to kick the Europeans out.

You give on the inquisition...very noble of you....what about the Crusades? The Conquistadores? All those stories of "missionaries" storming through villages with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other, instructing the natives to choose which one...? Your picture is a rather rosy one compared to what the history books have told me...

This could make a long discussion and I probably shouldn't jump in now because I'm on my way out for a while but...

"The Church" became very worldly when it got into bed with Rome. For the first time, chrch clergy gained positions of wealth and power. Apparently, in contrast to the poverty and persecution previously associated with the spread of the gospel, they liked it.

In any case, people have and continue to do unspeakable things in the name of religion, however, there is no Biblical basis for their actions. Most conquest that has gone on in the world has been for purely worldly reasons...money, land and power.

If we are going to mention all the unjust conquests carried out by "Christians" or "missionaries" like the Spanish in central America or the "crusades", we should probably mention the many many missionaries all over the world who are willingly enduring hardship and worse in order to spread the gospel with nothing worldly to gain for themselves. They aren't swinging swords but use a Bible and trust the Holy Spirit to do the rest. In America and Europe Christians might be beaten up some in the media but otherwise it's pretty safe. It isn't that way everyplace and to this very day there are Christians in other places who don't have it so easy.

Since I am a blacksmith and farrier, here is someone who's work I am familiar with. Check out the link to see what Mike Deibert is doing in in Nicaragua. http://www.christianblacksmiths.com/

This is another part of the picture that your history book might not have included. It's funny how every time the subject of Christianity comes up we hear about the crusades and Conquistadores but no one ever mentions people like Mike.

 

[H2Andy]

the basis of learning and knowledge is an open mind to new facts and possibilities

it seems to me that religion is the antithesis of this attitude when it comes to some key areas of knowledge

faith is blind. for me, it is ultimately unsatisfactory.

if it works for you, i am happy for you

 

[gangrel441]

This could make a long discussion and I probably shouldn't jump in now because I'm on my way out for a while but...

"The Church" became very worldly when it got into bed with Rome. For the first time, chrch clergy gained positions of wealth and power. Apparently, in contrast to the poverty and persecution previously associated with the spread of the gospel, they liked it.

In any case, people have and continue to do unspeakable things in the name of religion, however, there is no Biblical basis for their actions. Most conquest that has gone on in the world has been for purely worldly reasons...money, land and power.

If we are going to mention all the unjust conquests carried out by "Christians" or "missionaries" like the Spanish in central America or the "crusades", we should probably mention the many many missionaries all over the world who are willingly enduring hardship and worse in order to spread the gospel with nothing worldly to gain for themselves. They aren't swinging swords but use a Bible and trust the Holy Spirit to do the rest. In America and Europe Christians might be beaten up some in the media but otherwise it's pretty safe. It isn't that way everyplace and to this very day there are Christians in other places who don't have it so easy.

Since I am a blacksmith and farrier, here is someone who's work I am familiar with. Check out the link to see what Mike Deibert is doing in in Nicaragua. http://www.christianblacksmiths.com/

This is another part of the picture that your history book might not have included. It's funny how every time the subject of Christianity comes up we hear about the crusades and Conquistadores but no one ever mentions people like Mike.

Humanitarian work for the purpose of doing humanitarian work is unquestionalby noble. Humanitarian work for the purpose of getting people of a religion not your own to convert to your religion is, in my opinion, promotional activity. Sorry if that seems harsh, but as mentioned above, I am a recovered christian after having spent my whole youth growing up in a christian factory and having spent 5 years of my life in the brainwashing factory before I decided to forcibly deprogram myself. Funny thing is, to this day biblical quotes and songs and psalms pop into my head. They give me the overwhelming urge to go take a shower, or at least wash my hands.

 

[Hank49]

Well that one at least is rather simple ...

Men are from Mars
Women are from Venus
Kids are from Uranus ... or somewhere reasonably close to there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I kind of agree with this. Not the Uranus part and not really Venus and Mars....but I think that somewhere way back, the first humans crashed on Earth...or somehow screwed up their transport vehicle. I mean, they weren't like Capt. Cook and his boys who could just build another ship on a beach. They crashed and got stuck here because like us now....if our car broke or the moon lander broke, we can't build another one right there....know what I mean? Then, like any of us, they tried to survive, which they did....an ice age and who knows what else? But the space travel technology was lost somewhere along the time they were writing the Bible and things to make them live peacefully....
think about it. Only man has advanced from living in caves to landing on the moon in 1000 years. Other animals are still pretty dumb.
Sound far fetched? I agree. But I'll bet the real truth is even stranger.

 

[H2Andy]

Only man has advanced from living in caves to landing on the moon in 1000 years.

not quite, the first Homo Sapiens appeared about 500,000 years ago

still, 500,000 years from caves to Microsoft is pretty good, a blink of the eye in geologic time

(let's all thank our big frontal lobes)

 

[mislav]

the basis of learning and knowledge is an open mind to new facts and possibilities

it seems to me that religion is the antithesis of this attitude when it comes to some key areas of knowledge

faith is blind. for me, it is ultimately unsatisfactory.

Humanitarian work for the purpose of doing humanitarian work is unquestionalby noble. Humanitarian work for the purpose of getting people of a religion not your own to convert to your religion is, in my opinion, promotional activity.

Excellent points, guys.

And to add to this discussion - here's an interesting article on probability of other Earth-like worlds out there:
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2006/280.html

I've always wondered how would Christians cope with a discovery of an intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. The aliens would probably be somewhat different from us and god supposedly created us in his own image. Are all aliens the devil's children?

I actually dated a girl that claimed just that. As you can see, things didn't work out between the two of us.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Humanitarian work for the purpose of doing humanitarian work is unquestionalby noble. Humanitarian work for the purpose of getting people of a religion not your own to convert to your religion is, in my opinion, promotional activity. Sorry if that seems harsh, but as mentioned above, I am a recovered christian after having spent my whole youth growing up in a christian factory and having spent 5 years of my life in the brainwashing factory before I decided to forcibly deprogram myself. Funny thing is, to this day biblical quotes and songs and psalms pop into my head. They give me the overwhelming urge to go take a shower, or at least wash my hands.

Mike is certainly not doing humanitarian work only for the sake of doing humanitarian work. I don't want to speak for him but I wouldn't say that he's trying to convert any one either. He's just a messenger who wants to share the hope and love that he found in Christ. The Holy Spirit does the rest. I doubt that Mike would take any credit for any good that might be done through his vocational school.

 

[H2Andy]

i don't have a problem with someone who thinks he has found the greatest thing in the world to want to share it with others as part of making their lives better

in fact, i wouldn't expect them to do otherwise

 

[bperrybap]

I will say that I believe the world was created in 6 "days of the Lord" and I'm not privy to how long a "day of the Lord" is, and I do believe in adaptation.

I definitely don't land on the Christian creationism
side of this but...
Ok, out of curiosity, for any of you general/special realitivity
experts out there just how much gravity was around
or fast would the "Lord" have to be moving
in order to collapse OUR ~4.5 billions years down to HIS
"6 days of the lord"?

--- bill

 

[MikeFerrara]

Excellent points, guys.

And to add to this discussion - here's an interesting article on probability of other Earth-like worlds out there:
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2006/280.html

I've always wondered how would Christians cope with a discovery of an intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. The aliens would probably be somewhat different from us and god supposedly created us in his own image. Are all aliens the devil's children?

I actually dated a girl that claimed just that. As you can see, things didn't work out between the two of us.

First I would point out that we don't all look alike so we can't all look exactly as God does. Maybe we need to give more thought to what is meant by "in His image".

If some one suggested to me that any intelligent life on another planet must be the Devil's children I'd point out two things. First, one should probably consider being silent where the Bible is silent and I haven't found anything in scripture concerning aliens. Second, I'd have to point out that the Devil has plenty of children right here on earth.

The Bible says that in the begining God created the heavens and the earth. It does not give a comprehensive list of what He put in the heavens. It says that He created man and lists a few other things that He created. It does not provide a list of things that He didn't create or state that everything He created is in the list. With many people it's just a reading comprehension issue.