Creation vs. Evolution

[offthewall1]

While I have not attacked any one individual with any of my posts, thee have been many hateful posts directed at me... which is to be expected by those less gifted.

Everyone always aims for the spot at the top of the hill

 

[nereas]

I think that by this time they'd have come up with one if they could. There are none.

Religion starts out from the premise that everything is known (unless they are "mysteries" known only to their god). As time goes on science has destroyed almost everything that religion has to say about how the physical world works, and that puts serious questions into peoples' minds concerning what religion has to say about things that science (in and of itself) is completely disinterested in (e.g., some sort of spirit world). Now the chief religionists, seeing their free lunch passing before their eyes, are fighting a rearguard action feeding well meaning people who have believed in that spirit world obvious contradictory foolishness concerning the physical world. In the end truth will out and because of corner that they painted themselves into the religionists will pass from the scene, unless they succeed in killing us all (and themselves) first. Their belief in the Apocalypse (or Ragnarok, or The Coming of Gochihr, or The Return of Pahana, or Nahui Ollin, etc.) does cause me grave concern, there's a many a Christian out there who would feel glad if they awoke to hear that San Francisco, or New York, or New Deli, or Islamabad where shrouded by a mushroom cloud. They'd rush out into the street expecting to be raptured rather than ruptured.

Thal, I trust that Moses did a pretty good job of explaining in his day to Bronze Age peoples what Providence had done, and why.

John the Revelator tried to do the same regarding his gospel and his revelation for Iron Age peoples as well.

We live now in a very modern age, by comparision. Old prophets and their speech (logos) should not be nit picked apart simply due to modern explosive techniques and power reactors. It would be vanity for any of us to presume to be smarter than they were.

And modern rapturists contradict John's and Jesus' own words with expectations of a sudden imminent rapture. No one knows the hour nor the day.

 

[Thalassamania]

I suspect that the drafters of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, and the subsequent founders of the U.S. Constitution, which were the first documents to establish wide-spread civil rights, would clearly have disagreed with you, about god(s). Their god(s) were Jesus, his Father, and the Holy Spirit.

You need some history lessons, most of the Founding Fathers were Deists, Agnostics or Atheists.

Religion continually wins. The evidence is in the billions of people who attend religious cerimonies each week... while a few thousand scientists work feverishly to prove them all wrong.

That's err ... evidence of what? I know of no scientist who, "works feverishly to prove" anything about religion wrong. There are a few of us who, in a rather desultory fashion engage in conversations like this, but, "work feverishly," as in, "Oh, Boy were gonna get them thar Christians this time!" No. No interest. And for that matter, no need. The best argument for atheism is listing to a believer's cockamamie attempt at reason.

The vanity of science education is that it tries to superseded itself in the place of religions.

What crap. Science has looked at natural phenomena and explained how things work. When that has conflicts with the myths that religionists have been foisting off on the public instead of working for a living they get upset. Whose vain? Again ... one example of where a scientific explanation challenged a religious explanation of a natural process and did not win hand down.

And the vanity of religions is that they try to do the same to science education.

The vanity of religions is their incredible taxocentrism.

As east is east, and west is west, these two never should meet.

BUt every time they do the religionists get their butts kicked.

Science explains the "how" of creation while religion explains the "why" of it, and not vice versa, nor both. Neither explains both.

I have little of no interest in that "why" (I think it irrelevant, on the order of simply, "get over it, it is," you know that old Bill Cosby routine about, "why is there air?" Every P.E. major knows why there's air ... to blow up volleyballs with!). But I have an intent interest in that "how." I object to religionists handing out muddleheaded thinking and myths as competing explanations of "how" and then whining when rational people tell them it just ain't so.

While I have not attacked any one individual with any of my posts, thee have been many hateful posts directed at me... which is to be expected by those less gifted.

Everyone always aims for the spot at the top of the hill

No one's been hateful, just honest. If want to play patty-cake with amateurs, you are in the wrong place. Exit the pub and go to the DIR area where it's nice and warm, and protected, and there's no controversy.

Thal, I trust that Moses did a pretty good job of explaining in his day to Bronze Age peoples what Providence had done, and why.

John the Revelator tried to do the same regarding his gospel and his revelation for Iron Age peoples as well.

We live now in a very modern age, by comparision. Old prophets and their speech (logos) should not be nit picked apart simply due to modern explosive techniques and power reactors. It would be vanity for any of us to presume to be smarter than they were.

That's where your wrong. If my Professors took that attitude toward me, or I took that attitude toward my students we'd move backward rather than forward. Of course I know more than they did ... way more.

As Sam Harris put it:

"Imagine that we could revive a well-educated Christian of the fourteenth century. The man would prove to be a total ignoramus, except on matters of faith. His beliefs about geography, astronomy, and medicine would embarrass even a child, but he would know more or less everything there is to know about God. Though he would be considered a fool to think that the earth is flat, or that trepanning constitutes a wise medical intervention, his religious ideas would still be beyond reproach. There are two explanations for this: either we perfected our religious understanding of the world a millennium ago while our knowledge on all other fronts was still hopelessly inchoate or religion, being the mere maintenance of dogma, is one area of discourse that does not admit of progress. We will see that there is much to recommend the latter view."
​

And modern rapturists contradict John's and Jesus' own words with expectations of a sudden imminent rapture. No one knows the hour nor the day.

And those of you who stand by and watch them without taking action are witnesses to the crime who did nothing to help.

 

[deco_martini]

But do you see a place in the science classroom for creations of Christian creationism such as "Intelligent Design?"

I have a simple maxim that makes the issue of teaching creationism in the classroom simple.

"In science class we teach science"

This should make it entirely obvious why creationism is out of place in a science class. Its fine in a religion or mythology class. I believe in my mythology class I was taught about how the Greeks, Norse, Chinese, Sumerians, etc thought the world began. You could say that class was full of creationism.

Some people have the misunderstanding that a biology class is actually an "origins of life" class where metaphysical alternatives to biology should be discussed.

"In science class we teach science"

Teaching ID in a biology class is like teaching the alternative ancient hebrew belief in the firmament in an astronomy class.

 

[Soggy]

=
We live now in a very modern age, by comparision. Old prophets and their speech (logos) should not be nit picked apart simply due to modern explosive techniques and power reactors. It would be vanity for any of us to presume to be smarter than they were.

Of course we're smarter than they were. We've had thousands of years to figure stuff out. It would be pretty depressing if we hadn't learned anything in all that time. I expect my children to be smarter than I am and their children to utterly confuse me with their new fangled ways.

 

[Soggy]

While I have not attacked any one individual with any of my posts, thee have been many hateful posts directed at me... which is to be expected by those less gifted.

Everyone always aims for the spot at the top of the hill

Ah, you have no facts, no evidence, nothing to support your claims so you have resorted to chest thumping. And you say we didn't evolve from apes....

Zip up your proverbial fly. You didn't have anything worth showing off.

 

[Sas]

Zip up your proverbial fly. You didn't have anything worth showing off.

I'm gonna have to remember that line...

 

[offthewall1]

At least I wear pants with a fly ...

 

[Thalassamania]

At least I wear pants with a fly ...

Makin' fun o' me kilt are ye?

 

[Marvel]

You need some history lessons, most of the Founding Fathers were Deists, Agnostics or Atheists.

What absolute revisionist claptrap! I'm sorry, Thal, you have truly disappointed me with this statement. A bit of research easily disproves what you opine. Let's start with defining who the "Founding Fathers" were & then take a look at what is known about them & some of they said.

First, from the source that y'all place so much credence in, Wikopedia, I find this definition:

The Founding Fathers of the United States (also known as the Fathers of Our Country, or the Founders) are the political leaders who signed the Declaration of Independence or otherwise participated in the American Revolution as leaders of the Patriots, or who participated in drafting the United States Constitution eleven years later.

& for the sake of completeness:

Some authors draw a distinction between the Founders, who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or participated in the Revolution, and the Framers, who drafted the United States Constitution, to replace the Articles of Confederation, in 1787.[3] This article does not make that distinction.

So, let's just take a look at a few of the signers of the DofI & some of their known writings, quotes or known religious affiliation. BTW, I simply started at the top of the list in the link & all of this info was easily found using Google.

George Read wrote this into the constitution of Delaware:

DELAWARE 1776. Article XXII. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust...shall...make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit: "I, ________, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

Thomas McKean:

You will probably have but a short time to live. Before you launch into eternity, it behooves you to improve the time that may be allowed you in this world. It behooves you most seriously to reflect upon your conduct, to repent of your evil deeds, to be incessant in prayers to the great and merciful God to forgive your manifold transgressions and sins, to teach you to rely upon the merit and passion of a dear Redeemer and thereby to avoid those regions of sorrow, those doleful shades where peace and rest can never dwell, where even hope cannot enter. It behooves you to seek the fellowship, advice and prayers of pious and good men, to be persistent at the throne of grace and to learn the way that leadeth to happiness. May you reflecting upon these things and pursuing the will of the great Father of Light and Life, be received into the company and society of angels and archangels and the spirits of just men made perfect and may you be qualified to enter into the joys of heaven, joys unspeakable and full of glory.

Ceasar Rodney: I cannot find anything written by him on line but he was an Episcopalian by religion.

George Clymer:

I received a letter a short time ago from cousin Jane Henry giving me the sad intelligence of the death of our dear Sister Elizabeth and her husband. I hope they are enjoying the "Rest" prepared for the faithful.

Robert Morris: I cannot find anything written by him on line but he was an Episcopalian by religion.

Benjamin Rush: His plan of education for Dickenson College opens with the following:

Of Religious Instruction
As the fear of the LORD is the beginning of all wisdom, and should be the end & Object of all education, the youth in this college shall be instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion.

James Smith: Little is known about his work, because a fire destroyed his office and papers shortly before he died but he was known as a Presbyterian.

George Taylor: Little is known about him but he was identified as a Presbyterian by the Presbyterian Historical Society and the Presbyterian Church, USA.

John Morton: Again, little known of him but John was an Episcopalian who became active in civic and church affairs. He was initially opposed to independence but changed his mind & signed the DofI even though he arrived to late to vote.

George Ross: Little known but he was the son of an Anglican minister & was Anglican (Episcopalian) himself.

James Wilson: Very little in the way of writings but he was an Episcopalian (Anglican) also. Interesting tidbit- he spent some time in a debtors prison... while still serving on the Supreme Court. :11:

John Adams in his inauguration speech:

I feel it to be my duty to add, if a veneration for the religion of a people who profess and call themselves Christians, and a fixed resolution to consider a decent respect for Christianity among the best recommendations for the public service, can enable me in any degree to comply with your wishes, it shall be my strenuous endeavor that this sagacious injunction of the two Houses shall not be without effect....And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence.

John Hancock: Could not find any writings on line but he was identified as a Congregationalist by The Congregationalist Library.

Elbridge Gerry: Did not find any writings but he was identified as an Episcopalian in A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution by M. E. Bradford.

Samuel Adams:

PROCLAMATION.

FEBRUARY 19, 1794

Commonwealth of Massachusetts

BY HIS HONOR SAMUEL ADAMS, ESQ , LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR AND COMMANDER IN
CHIEF OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS

A PROCLAMATION FOR A DAY OF PUBLIC FASTING, HUMILIATION, AND PRAYER.

I HAVE thought fit, by, and with the advice of the Council to appoint
THURSDAY, the Seventeenth day of APRIL next, to be observed throughout
this Commonwealth, as a day of PUBLIC FASTING, HUMILIATION and PRAYER;
earnestly exhorting the Ministers of Religion to assemble with their
respective Congregations on the same day--that deeply lamenting our
ingratitude to our Heavenly Father, to whom we are under all possible
obligations, and our many deviations from those right and safe Paths,
into which, as our Supreme Governor, HE hath plainly directed us, we
may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free
pardon, thro' JESUS CHRIST, supplicating His Divine aid that we may
become a reformed and happy people. At the same time humbly beseeching
HIM, mercifully to regard our lives and health, so that no infectious
and mortal distemper may prevail amongst us: To favour our land with
the alternate benefits of rain and warmth of the Sun; and that our
hopes of a plentiful harvest may not be disappointed by devouring
insects, or any other calamity:--To prosper our trade and fishery, and the
labor of our hands:--To protect our navigation from the rapacious hands of
invaders and robbers on the seas, and graciously to open a door of
deliverance to our fellow-citizens in cruel captivity in a land of
Barbarians:--To continue and confirm our civil and religious liberties;
and for that great purpose to bless and direct our great University,
and all Seminaries and Schools of education:-- To guide and succeed the
Councils of our Federal Government, as well as those of the several
States in the Union, that under their respective Constitutions they may
be led to such decisions as will establish the liberty, peace, safety,
and honor of our country:-- To inspire our friends and allies, the
Republic of France, with a spirit of wisdom and true religion, that
relying on the strength of HIS Almighty Arm, they may still go on
prosperously till their arduous conflict for a government of their own,
founded on the just and equal rights of men, shall be finally crowned
with success:--And above all, to cause the Religion of JESUS CHRIST, in
its true spirit, to spread far and wide, till the whole earth shall be
filled with HIS glory.

Oh, & that famous deist Benjamin Franklin:

Gentlemen! I thank you ! I thought I knew before all the proofs of the existence of a God ; but your blasphemies have taught me I had yet one more to learn. To hate God, to insult Him, as you do, demonstrates
at least that He is ; and your language proves that, in spite of yourselves, you are not able to dismiss from your minds that certainty.According to you, a man is great in proportion as he revolts and rebels; but I say, a man is never greater or stronger than when he truly humbles himself before God

Lastly, for tonight- that other famous deist, Thomas Jefferson:

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

Although he did also say:

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

&

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.

I find it interesting that Jefferson made many statements that can (& have)been used by various camps to claim that he was one thing or another. What I do see in his writings, no matter how unorthodox they may appear to our 21st century outlook, is a man of profound thought & intellect who struggled with the same questions that we face today when deciding if there is a God. Like Thomas Aquinas & others who questioned & expressed doubts & contradictions, what I have found lead me believe that he was a man of faith- if not one bound by what is termed as evangelical or fundamentalist Christianity today.

I just want to add one from George Washington (couldn't leave him out):

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

To close with a bit more from Jefferson...He did say something that I wish that everyone in this thread would keep in mind as they debate & respond to each other:

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.

Wise words whether they come form a Christian, a deist, or an atheist.