Creation vs. Evolution

[deco_martini]

When I was a young fundamentalist, most creationists suffered from what I call "halfway understanding the bible". They read the King James bible but did not really understand what it was saying. The ancient hebrews' understanding of the world was fundamentally in error. They believe the sky was a solid shell over a flat earth. They called this "the firmament". When English speaking fundamentalists read the bible they read the word "firmament" and just sort of skip over it.

In the Noah story, the firmament opens and water comes out. In genesis, god puts lights in the firmament (stars). You find many references to the firmament in Genesis and beyond.

Now, if you believe your bible is literal then it is heresy to say the firmament doesn't exist. Not being able to read and understand Hebrew is not an excuse for this oversight. Just as God planted fossils in the ground in to test your faith, he also helped direct the fake moon landing videos. Also, everyone who claims to have ever flown on the plane is a liar. Star Trek was produced by communists and atheists trying to convince American nerds that the bible is in error.

You see how silly a concept like the firmament is because the concept is foreign to you and it flies in the face of staggering mounds of evidence that it doesn't take a scientist to understand.

The more I studied the Bible and the original Hebrew, the more I realized that American fundamentalism is based on misunderstanding the bible. That was a hard truth it took me a long time to swallow. Part of me became suspicious since there were many theologians in the fundamentalist movement, some contributed to new English translations of the Bible. How could they not have known that the ancient Hebrews thought rain come out of tiny holes in the ceiling? How could they not have known that there were discrepancies in the time lines in the different books of the old testament (discrepancies they fix without comment in their new translations).

If you claim to truly believe in Genesis, then you also believe the world is flat and has a ceiling like a snow dome ornament. Now, if you take the word of the scientists who assure us that their competing concept of an "atmosphere" and "round earth" are true.......

The problem with creationism is it breaks down if its false. It doesn't revise. Science changes with time. Darwinian evolution has morphed into a modern evolutionary theory that has changed as science has progressed. It has become stronger and more detailed. In Darwin's day, he fundamentally misunderstood genetics. Modern genetics has mapped the human genome.

Creationists have still failed to find evidence that the sky is solid........

Firmament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am always amazed at how many people have read their bible faithfully but never actually _read_ their bible.

 

[H2Andy]

The more I studied the Bible and the original Hebrew, the more I realized that American fundamentalism is based on misunderstanding the bible. That was a hard truth it took me a long time to swallow.

i went through a very similar experience, having been born, grown up, baptized (at the age of 13) and having fully accepted the teachings of Baptist fundamentalism

by the time i was 15 or 16, it started to dawn on me that what i had been taught didn't really explain observable reality

by the time i was 19, i stopped going to church. for the next few years, i really struggled with my almost inherent belief in God and the reality that i was observing through my own eyes and the accumulated body of human knowledge

by the time i was 25, i had reached the conclusion that the God of the Bible was not literal

i did not turn my back on the teachings of my youth. there is much of value to be found in the Bible (there are also some very closed-minded cultural norms, not surprisingly since the last book of the Bible was written almost 2,000 years ago).

however, i now recognize the Bible as allegory and wisdom, not fact. i continue to read it, and find much of value therein.

but i just can't close my eyes and ignore the facts all around me

 

[Soggy]

Before any more debate continues with Green Manelishi, I'd like people to review his posting history in this thread and I'd like to point out the faith statement on his website.

GREEN MANELISHI FAITH/STATEMENT

He is a literalist in the most strict sense. No amount of evidence or rationality will ever lead him to reality, so it is a complete and utter waste of time to argue with him. He is thoroughly and utterly convinced that everything in the Bible is a literal description of exactly what happened.

 

[deco_martini]

No amount of evidence or rationality will ever lead him to reality, so it is a complete and utter waste of time to argue with him.

There is a term for this:
Fractal Wrongness

 

[Thalassamania]

Hint3: Wind.....Waves.....and eddy currents

Actually they have rather little to do with global circulation, a lot to do with local near shore, but not the "real" (deep) ocean.

 

[gary-ramey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
I've educated myself quite well.

Dude, you don't even demonstrate the most rudimentary understanding of anything in the natural world. You didn't know why there was sedimentary layers on mountains for goodness sake. I really mean it when I say that most 6th graders likely have a better grasp of biology and physics than you have demonstrated. Maybe it's just that you are so stubborn that you can't admit when you're wrong and maybe you're just blinded by your faith, but something is really missing from your understanding of the world.


Quote:
How about you? You seem to parrot the one-liners you've been fed since birth...ever do any real science and question its validity?

One liners? I've read books on astrophysics, relativity, quantum electrodynamics, string theory, evolution, and a number of other topics. Not to mention, I try to keep up with current scientific research and I do question the validity of some science. For example, I think string theory isn't great science for a number of reasons. Additionally, I'm married to a good Catholic girl and attend church services pretty frequently as a result of family obligation, so I'm not ignorant to Christian beliefs.

I'll take that as a compliment that I don't see the world through the predetermined outcome that today's science does. As for sedimentary rock everywhere, that could never have happened with a standing body of water:11: and had to be due to some other explanation that fits evolutionary models. Forget the prehistoric fish in Denver's Natural History Museum that was found in Breckenridge at 9000 feet in perfect condition....all 14ft of it. I find it interesting that most of your atheistic websites start their retort much like the atheists on here do, by insulting the intelligence of those they disagree with. Then they offer an anecdote for the any theory that opposes evoution so people like you have an alternative argument. It allows you to dismiss any evidence which doesn't line up with your presupposed theory. Well read you might be, but no one will accuse you of thinking for yourself anytime soon.
As for walking into church for "family". That's commendable. But don't confuse the pomp and circumstance of religion with a personal relationship with Christ. The two are oil and water.

 

[gary-ramey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
The point is signficant mutations are always fatal to the animal

No, it didn't say that. You can't just replace the word "sometimes" with "always" and make it true.

I also added the word significant. Because its true. You can't point to single significant mutation in nature that isn't fatal. All I need is one.

 

[gary-ramey]

Then tell me this. Why is it chemists, geologists, archaeologists, biologists, physicists and all these other so-called experts are so wrong about dating the age of earth?

Because there are enough chemists, geologists, archeologists, biologists, physicists and other experts who disagree with them. Furthermore, they offer viable alternative evidences that are routinely dismissed by the inner circle of scientific philosophers.

Disclaimer: I was raised in a fundamentalist household and taught all the popular myths like how there was a missing link, how Darwin death bed recanted, how dating methods aren't reliable, and so forth. But having a fundamentalist preacher teach you about evolution is like having an Amish guy teach about fundamentals of computer circuit design. They are out of their league and completely ignorant of the subject only knowing hearsay about it themselves. I became suspicious of what was going on when I figured out most of what I had been told about evolution was misinformation.

So you changed religion for scientific philosophy. Enjoy the hedonistic liberties that affords while you can.

 

[gary-ramey]

I said:
Hint2: Ocean circulation is driven by differences in density between water masses.

Clue here...and differing densities aren't just due to salinity. Temperature, tides and trade winds play a much larger role.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'll take that as a compliment that I don't see the world through the predetermined outcome that today's science does.

I take it you are not a Calvanist.

As for sedimentary rock everywhere, that could never have happened with a standing body of water:11: and had to be due to some other explanation that fits evolutionary models. Forget the prehistoric fish in Denver's Natural History Museum that was found in Breckenridge at 9000 feet in perfect condition....all 14ft of it.

I take it you are not a geologist.

I find it interesting that most of your atheistic websites start their retort much like the atheists on here do, by insulting the intelligence of those they disagree with.

I take it you don't understand what you read.

Then they offer an anecdote for the any theory that opposes evoution so people like you have an alternative argument. It allows you to dismiss any evidence which doesn't line up with your presupposed theory. Well read you might be, but no one will accuse you of thinking for yourself anytime soon.

I take it you have not idea what an anecdote or a theory is.

As for walking into church for "family". That's commendable. But don't confuse the pomp and circumstance of religion with a personal relationship with Christ. The two are oil and water.

I take it you have not understanding of the Catholic Churches.